Rant: Placing value in yourself based on others' accomplishments

[NPTKD]

yep, nine when he got his second degree....I know it is crap!!! and his instructor should be slapped and sport tkd sucks...the usual stuff...oh yeah i have to send you a video for you to believe me...I know the drill...the invitation still stands if you are in Las Vegas you can stop by and train with us...I think you would be surprised...I am sure that we could benefit from your considerable expertise

WOW! your starting to come around! I like it!:yoda:

 

[dancingalone]

For the most part, I agree. I do not necessarily agree with the 'elite rank' definition though. There should be a single, challenging standard (one that Twin Fist would approve of, just to clarify what I mean by challenging). One either meets it or they do not. If 100 people come through the school who all work for and earn it, and meet the standard, then 100 BB's is fine. If only one of those hundred can meet the standard, then so be it. One BB.

We're on the same page. If you have 100 elite martial artists then they all should be black belts. In my opinion, that's not how things bear out in reality though. Many schools will eventually reward someone who puts in the time and effort with a black belt after years of study. Perhaps he might not be physically gifted and he just took a long time to learn the material. In the end, he learned the curriculum but he's by no means proficient. In fact, more than a few of the color belts are sharper in execution than he is. What's the call on promotion for a guy like this? In my school, he would stay a kyu student forever. Some would call it harsh, but I would call it keeping true to a high standard.

Yes, I support the poom rank, but not giving out black belts with it. I have stated many, many times that poom rank students should be wearing poom belts and poom doboks (assuming that you are talking Kukkiwon taekwondo).

Ah, I always forget the poom belt is colored differently. I suppose I really meant more a junior black belt, where it is understood that the rank is not a full, permanent adult one, but where the child still wears a black belt. This practice is more common in my area than a poom belt.

I am not sure where you get the idea that I am "big" on the curriculum = rank concept. I feel that the equation should be reversed: Rank = curriculum, and rank is determined by proficiency in the curriculum learned thus far. In fact, I have stated in many posts that I am big on proficiency.

Essentially, my school of thought is that when you are proficient in your white belt curriculum, then you can test for your first colored belt. When you are proficient in the curriculum for that level and more polished on that of the previous, then you may test for your next colored belt. If that process takes ten years, so be it. If a mondo dedicated uber martial arts wiz can do it three years, so be it.

Belts are only a marker of the student's progress. No chart is involved.

I could have worded my statement better. You believe in an objective measurement of technical skill and knowledge to qualify for rank. I generally agree with that, but I wanted to make the point that there should be more criteria for rank than just techniques listed on a chart. Things like power, precision, prowess at actual fighting... These attributes are difficult to put onto a chart to fit to every single person, but subjectively as a teacher one can definitely tell whether a student has them or not.

 

[MJS]

yep, nine when he got his second degree....I know it is crap!!! and his instructor should be slapped and sport tkd sucks...the usual stuff...oh yeah i have to send you a video for you to believe me...I know the drill...the invitation still stands if you are in Las Vegas you can stop by and train with us...I think you would be surprised...I am sure that we could benefit from your considerable expertise

Can I ask you some serious questions? Here goes....

1) How old was your son when he started training?

2) What is the time frame between each grade?

3) If someone were to ask your son an in-depth, technical question on TKD, be it history, or technical questions about self defense or kata, would he be capable of providing the same in-depth reply?

4) Once the upper black belt ranks of TKD are reached, what is the average time frame between ranks? In other words, time between 3rd and 4th, 4th and 5th, 5th and 6th, etc.?

5) Is there a minimum age for the upper BB ranks? I ask this because given your sons young age and his current rank, it could be possible for him to be in his 20s or 30s and be a high rank TKDist.

I'm trying to be sincere with my questions, in an effort to better understand where you and other TKDists, who share these beliefs, are coming from. I hope to get a sincere reply in return.

Mike

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We're on the same page. If you have 100 elite martial artists then they all should be black belts. In my opinion, that's not how things bear out in reality though. Many schools will eventually reward someone who puts in the time and effort with a black belt after years of study. Perhaps he might not be physically gifted and he just took a long time to learn the material. In the end, he learned the curriculum but he's by no means proficient. In fact, more than a few of the color belts are sharper in execution than he is. What's the call on promotion for a guy like this? In my school, he would stay a kyu student forever. Some would call it harsh, but I would call it keeping true to a high standard.

Well, there are people who play violin for decades but never make the cut for the orchestra. They are decent players and could probably be killer in a new age or country band, but they do not have the precision needed for playing in the orchestra. And more often than not, they know it and are okay with it. They continue to play violin because they simply love playing the violin.

There are people who learn a martial art good enough to defend themselves but who are never going to make the K-tigers.

Having said that, a BB should be proficient. The violinist that I mentioned above is proficient with the instrument. Just not orchestral quality. I will address proficiency at the end of my reply.

Ah, I always forget the poom belt is colored differently. I suppose I really meant more a junior black belt, where it is understood that the rank is not a full, permanent adult one, but where the child still wears a black belt. This practice is more common in my area than a poom belt.

The poom belt is Kukkiwon specific. The problem that I have with poom rank students wearing a black belt is that there is a specific poom belt and an official procedure for converting the rank from poom to dan.

Before a poom existed, a black belt meant dan rank. A poom is not a dan rank. If your system uses the Kyu/Dan system and you do not hold a dan rank, then you should not wear a black belt. Period.

Junior blackbelt is a rather nebulous term. It could mean that the student is first dan but only ten or it could mean that the student is some sort of nominal keup, dan bo, or simply a first kyu second level.

I could have worded my statement better. You believe in an objective measurement of technical skill and knowledge to qualify for rank. I generally agree with that, but I wanted to make the point that there should be more criteria for rank than just techniques listed on a chart. Things like power, precision, prowess at actual fighting... These attributes are difficult to put onto a chart to fit to every single person, but subjectively as a teacher one can definitely tell whether a student has them or not.

Agree completely. The curriculum is only one part of the equation. The student must be proficient in the curriculum.

So, proficiency: Proficiency is separate from being physically gifted. I want to see the student demonstrate proficiency, not athletics. Meaning that when performing forms, strikes and blocks should have reasonable snap and power; enough power that the strike would actually hurt an opponent and that a block would actually stop an attack. The form should be done with precision: a kick that is supposed to be aimed at the knee should be aimed at the knee, not some nebulous, mid-leg-ish area, and not at the sky.

A guy who does Koryo, for example, who aims the first set of double kicks skyward is demonstrating athletics. That is it. As impressive as that is, he is not showing an understanding of the form. The first kick is to collapse knee. The second is aimed at the solar plexus and is meant to take down the now crippled opponent. No matter how much power and snap he has, if he misses the target entirely, then it is meaningless. Firing a .44 into the air makes a big, cool sound. But it is also a waste of ammunition.

Aside from reasonable power and snap, I want to see the student handle themselves in free sparring. I want to see them exert control over the pace of the fight, maintain their composure, remain precise. Even if the student is sparring a fifth dan uber-Chuck and has to fight defensively, their proficiency should be clearly seen.

There are tons of people who can do every form and execute every strike and block and who may look pretty doing so. But do they understand the techniques? Can they use them against a resisting opponent?

Lastly, is their ability to spar entirely dependent upon them having a certain degree of physical prowess? In other words, is the guy sloppy, but always wins because he is tall and built like Bret Hart when Bret was in his prime and simply can punish you because he is really, really strong? If so, then he is not proficient; he is just really strong and athletically gifted. But when that deserts him, as it will eventually, without proficiency, he will start getting beaten by really sharp low belts.

Ultimately, a martial art is supposed to be for life, not just for your athletic prime. Techniques are supposed to be done correctly because if done correctly, they do not require you to muscle through them. A person with substantial technical command of their art can remain formidable well past their prime and competent into their old age.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Lastly, is their ability to spar entirely dependent upon them having a certain degree of physical prowess? In other words, is the guy sloppy, but always wins because he is tall and built like Bret Hart when Bret was in his prime and simply can punish you because he is really, really strong? If so, then he is not proficient; he is just really strong and athletically gifted. But when that deserts him, as it will eventually, without proficiency, he will start getting beaten by really sharp low belts.

Sloppy wouldn't cut it in my book. That said unathletic and unfit doesn't either. Strength and flexibility is the key to much of "hard" style martial arts such as tae kwon do or karate. It seems counterproductive to me to allow someone who is not fit to advance in rank. I'm not talking about someone who might have gained a few extra pounds. I'm talking about those who can't lift even half their body weight or those who have poor range of motion due to a lack of limberness.

Ultimately, a martial art is supposed to be for life, not just for your athletic prime. Techniques are supposed to be done correctly because if done correctly, they do not require you to muscle through them. A person with substantial technical command of their art can remain formidable well past their prime and competent into their old age.

Agreed, but it's obviously better to marry strength and speed with technical prowess if you want the top results. A perfect form side kick does nothing for me if it can't even so much as move an 80 lb heavy bag.

As a side note, have you ever thought about all the legendary masters who survived to an old age and their technique transcended strength and speed? Every one of them that I know about all learned their art when they were young and strong. See Ueshiba from Aikido, see "Judo" Gene LeBell. Heck, Mas Oyama was still robust into his advancing years.

I think there's a trap in saying you don't have to be strong and fit to practice martial arts (not saying this is your position by the way). It clearly helps.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sloppy wouldn't cut it in my book. That said unathletic and unfit doesn't either. Strength and flexibility is the key to much of "hard" style martial arts such as tae kwon do or karate. It seems counterproductive to me to allow someone who is not fit to advance in rank. I'm not talking about someone who might have gained a few extra pounds. I'm talking about those who can't lift even half their body weight or those who have poor range of motion due to a lack of limberness.

I agree; there is definitely a level of fitness needed to effectively perform a hard style. If your conditioning still prevents you from being able to fully perform the range of techniques by the time you get to black belt, then you are not ready.

Agreed, it's obviously better to marry strength and speed with technical prowess if you want the top results. A perfect form side kick does nothing for me if it can't even so much as move an 80 lb heavy bag.

As a side note, have you ever thought about all the legendary masters who survived to an old age and their technique transcended strength and speed? Every one of them that I know about all learned their art when they were young and strong. See Ueshiba from Aikido, see "Judo" Gene LeBell. Heck, Mas Oyama was still robust into his advancing years.

I think there's a trap in saying you don't have to be strong and fit to practice martial arts (not saying this is your position by the way). It clearly helps.

Once again, complete agreement. While I do think that there are benefits to one taking up a martial art in middle age or older, starting at that point means that you are working with a middle aged or older body and need to accept that you will have limitations and may never be able to execute the techniques at a black belt level. Now, there are older people who can start an art and get themselves into good enough condition to perform at a BB level, but people should be realistic about their physical condition.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Please take your blinders off, please. The average non martial artist is clueless about the arts. I've been asked what I train in, I tell them, and they ask me if its like TKD or what Bruce Lee did. So yes, it does come down to the entire industry because people dont know any better.

And yes, people are under this assumption that the BB is something that empowers you, that makes you superman, but it doesnt. Because the people handing out the belts lead people to think that, because many insts. dont give a **** about the end result, as long as they're getting paid.

Yes, they maybe clueless but I did not say they knew it all. Most people in our area tend to do a bit of research before coming to a school or they tend to ask a lot of questions such as "What's the difference in this art compared to XYZ school down the street".

I guess if we are going to play this scenario to its full effect, a good reporter would not just say John Doe was an 11 year black belt in martial arts. They tend to be a bit more thorough when putting in such details, such as Johny Doe was an 11 year old black belt at XZY Karate.

I still stand by my earlier statement, I would not care so much about if the kid had a black belt or not. I would be more concerned about the fact it was kid. Don't think I would read it as "Oh well another kid was kidnapped and slain and OH MY GOD HE WAS A BLACK BELT???!!!!".

Oh, and I have not been asked, nor have I ever been asked in my 29 years, if what I did is the same thing as Bruce Lee.

 

[KELLYG]

Sloppy wouldn't cut it in my book. That said athletic and unfit doesn't either. Strength and flexibility is the key to much of "hard" style martial arts such as tae kwon do or karate. It seems counterproductive to me to allow someone who is not fit to advance in rank. I'm not talking about someone who might have gained a few extra pounds. I'm talking about those who can't lift even half their body weight or those who have poor range of motion due to a lack of limberness

dancingalone,
I guess, according to you I would have to give my Black Belt back. I do suffer from lack of flexibility in my hips at lateral motion. I am not lazy and have worked very hard to improve this but compared to others in my school I am not flexible. I have partnered stretched. I have had ladders in my living room with pulleys to try to improve flexibility. I have stretched using various pieces of furniture in my house. I have used ART (active release therapy) to try to over come this particular limitation. Just ain't going to happen. Even as a kid I was limited in flexibility in that one regard. I guess it's back to white belt for me!

 

[dancingalone]

dancingalone,
I guess, according to you I would have to give my Black Belt back. I do suffer from lack of flexibility in my hips at lateral motion. I am not lazy and have worked very hard to improve this but compared to others in my school I am not flexible. I have partnered stretched. I have had ladders in my living room with pulleys to try to improve flexibility. I have stretched using various pieces of furniture in my house. I have used ART (active release therapy) to try to over come this particular limitation. Just ain't going to happen. Even as a kid I was limited in flexibility in that one regard. I guess it's back to white belt for me!

I have no idea what your personal limitations are, Kelly. I will say an inability to kick highly actually wouldn't be a problem for me since my system of karate is much more friendly than tae kwon do in this regard. Waist high kicks are fine as long as they're good ones.

Where I speak about limberness is with the total range of movement with one's body. We do extensive ukemi in my school from a variety of positions and if you can't do a fireman's roll (essentially a front roll executed from a running and leaping start in the air), you just won't get past green belt with me.

The standards I have on strength and limberness aren't arbitrary. It's because you need these things in certain measures to be able to execute specific movements or techniques I require from my students. Let me give you another example, one requiring strength: I ask all my students to be able to perform tomoe-nage on a full-sized man at least 200 lbs. Below is a video so you know the throw I am talking about.

[yt]XZPpeVzTt-E[/yt]

Tomoe-nage can definitely be completed by someone much weaker and smaller than the attacker, but there's a minimum baseline. It's doubtful a nine-year-old for example could successfully execute the throw on a 200 lb man from a standing position.

 

[Gorilla]

go ahead and think you NINE YEAR OLD is the equal of an adult

*shudder*

I have never said that nor do i think that it is the case...

 

[KELLYG]

dancingalone

Cool, I dig what you are saying now. As for the drill in the video the two legged version is something that I have done before. I have not tried the one legged version, looks interesting though. Front falls, back falls, left side right side rolls, reverse left and right side rolls drop falls and throws are something that I have been trained in and can do. My problem is for example side kick above waist level or things that require flexibility for that particular type of movement.

 

[MJS]

Can I ask you some serious questions? Here goes....

1) How old was your son when he started training?

2) What is the time frame between each grade?

3) If someone were to ask your son an in-depth, technical question on TKD, be it history, or technical questions about self defense or kata, would he be capable of providing the same in-depth reply?

4) Once the upper black belt ranks of TKD are reached, what is the average time frame between ranks? In other words, time between 3rd and 4th, 4th and 5th, 5th and 6th, etc.?

5) Is there a minimum age for the upper BB ranks? I ask this because given your sons young age and his current rank, it could be possible for him to be in his 20s or 30s and be a high rank TKDist.

I'm trying to be sincere with my questions, in an effort to better understand where you and other TKDists, who share these beliefs, are coming from. I hope to get a sincere reply in return.

Mike

Just bumping these questions up for Gorilla, as I'm curious of the answers.

 

[Twin Fist]

he got black at SEVEN

2nd at NINE

and now at TWELVE is going for 3rd?

-now think about that. even if you go one of those 2 year BS black belts, thats starting at FIVE. NO ONE LEARNS REAL KARATE AT FIVE they are not capable of REAL learning of a REAL martial art at FIVE

 

[Gorilla]

Just bumping these questions up for Gorilla, as I'm curious of the answers.

1. He started at 4 got his first Poom at 7 1/2....3 1/2 years...I think that 7 1/2 is way to young but that is the culture of TKD as it stands. When I spoke with the Master he was the youngest that he had promoted. He felt that from competition stand point he need to fight as a black belt. He is National Level competitor for his age.

2. 3 1/2 to first....1 1/2 to second(he has been a 2nd for over 3 years)...As I stated on the other thread...The master was going to evaluate him for three months and then test for 3rd. @ 2 weeks into this period the Master spoke with me and we decided that 3rd was premature and that we would re-think his 3rd when he reaches 15.

3. He would be able tho answer to the level of intelligence of a 12 year old (A student). He taught his sister her forms and she is currently a 1st Dan Black. He is currently teaching her the form necessary for her 2nd Dan. As far as self def could he defend himself in a toe to toe fight with a full grown 200lb man absolutely not but is that true self defense. He is self aware enough not to put himself in that situation. He understands striking points and what he would need to do to get away. He is extremely fast. He is very fast for a 12 year old and faster than most adults. He could get away from most adults

4. "Most" schools 21 for 4th, 25 for 5th, 35 for 6th, 40 for 7th, 50 for 8th and 55 for 9th...I think after 6th you have to go to Korea...This is what i have heard. I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong but i think that this is close.

I am always sincere and truthful with my answers. I always respect other opinions even if they are not respectful in turn.

 

[Flying Crane]

1. He started at 4 got his first Poom at 7 1/2....3 1/2 years...I think that 7 1/2 is way to young but that is the culture of TKD as it stands.

I don't really want to get into the middle of this, but your comments here really jump out at me. You state that you believe 7 1/2 is way too young, but chalk it up to the culture of TKD.

Sounds to me like you know something is amiss. Something just doesn't add up. Something fishy in Denmark (or Korea, as it may be). Yet you seem to be turning a blind eye to it.

 

[Gorilla]

Something is amiss...not much i could do about it at this point...the point is really mute no matter what you call his rank he deserves to be in the top for his age...should we separate adult ranks from kids rank....makes sense to me...is the horse out of the barn "yep"...I started the youth black belt thread because I thought that it would start a lively discussion(mission accomplished)...I have had to talk about my kids skill and accomplishment only because of assumptions and doubts about there skill... I can assure you that if you trained with them you would be impressed with their skill and dedication...they truly love tkd...20 years from know this discussion will seem silly because I believe that they will still be involved in TKD...

 

[Twin Fist]

and in 20 years, they MIGHT deserve a 3rd degree.


BUT NOT AT TWELVE

 

[Gorilla]

Master Tygart why so angry... went on your web site congrats on your promotion to 4th Dan...clear something up for me did you do a skip dan test from 2nd to 4th...are you an ATA black belt...seems that you have trained in many Martial Arts great stuff...I like the values that you have posted...you might want to think about the ones in bold!!!

Courtesy - to be polite, treat others as you wish to be treated
Integrity - to exhibit good moral behavior
Perseverance - to not give up regardless of how difficult the task
Self Control - to be in control of your actions and emotions without being reminded
Indomitable Spirit- a spirit that can not be conquered

 

[Sukerkin]

should we separate adult ranks from kids rank....makes sense to me

The very point that I made at the beginning of this tempestuous thread .

It was certainly the case in my own martial arts experience.

 

[Twin Fist]

I dont believe myself to be a Master. I dont let my students use that term, and even though it is allowed for 4ths, in Texas, we generally dont use it till 5th. Thanks tho. Oh, and yes, my instructor, in light of my time in grade, and my having opened my own school, and after seeing my students perform, saw fit to promote me to 4th dan when i was testing for 3rd.

I am not angry, I am flabbergasted that you dont know you are being robbed.

I HATE people that take money, and promote kids in something the kid cant possibly learn, deserve or earn.

And no, i refuse to even walk into an ATA school. I was in the military, so i had the chance to study lots of stuff. It gave me a broader base, and an experience outside of JUST TKD. Thats one main reason why i DESPISE what is happening to you.

My self control is just fine, and by texas standards, i have been downright POLITE to you.

You are being robbed, and you either dont know or dont care.

and it is MY profession thats doing it, i dont like that

Master Tygart why so angry... went on your web site congrats on your promotion to 4th Dan...clear something up for me did you do a skip dan test from 2nd to 4th...are you an ATA black belt...seems that you have trained in many Martial Arts great stuff...I like the values that you have posted...you might want to think about the ones in bold!!!

Courtesy - to be polite, treat others as you wish to be treated
Integrity - to exhibit good moral behavior
Perseverance - to not give up regardless of how difficult the task
Self Control - to be in control of your actions and emotions without being reminded
Indomitable Spirit- a spirit that can not be conquered