Ranks question, etc.

[Shodan]

Okay- this might be already on here somewhere, but I hope not. Firstly, my question is.......why does Larry Tatum wear a 10th degree black belt? I thought that rank was only reserved (in the Kenpo world) for Mr. Parker and everyone honored that.

Secondly......I ask this not because I have anything against Mr. Tatum.....in fact, I have been researching him a lot lately cuz I might go study with one of his 7th degree black belts and am trying to figure out what, if any, differences I may encounter from what I am used to.

Thanks!

:asian: :karate:

 

[pknox]

Interesting question. I'm not sure of the answer, but here are two possibilities:

1. Does Master Tatum technically teach his own unique system, which is separate enough from EPAK in his eyes to warrant it being considered a different style, or does he consider himself a teacher of EPAK? If it is the former, and he is in fact the founder and head of his own style, there would be precedence for his 10th dan. If it is the latter, see my next point...

2. In many other systems I've seen, the 10th dan is something that can only be held by one living practitioner at a time. There are other systems where the rank is reserved for the founder. I'm not sure if EPAK has the former or the latter restriction (or either, for that matter). If it is in fact the former, as GM Parker is unfortunately no longer with us, it would seem that it would be possible to have a 10th dan currently. The fact that there is some dispute, in some circles, as to who is the formal successor of GM Parker's system could also help explain why multiple people may claim the rank. If it is the latter, and the rank is reserved solely for the founder, than possibly my first point would be the case.

Just conjecture, granted. To the best of my knowledge, Master Tatum is not a member of Martial Talk, so we most likely will not get his first-hand take on this issue - but we are fortunate to have some very high ranking members of the Kenpo community here. Given their unique perspective, I would be most interested in their comments on the situation.

 

[Sergio Jódar]

Master Tatum is not the only one who wears a 10 th. degree, Mr. Palanzo, Trejo, Planas... wear this rank as well, and I don´t have any problem with it. If they are the best... Why not to wear this rank?
Which Mr. Tatum´s 7 th. are you going to study with?

 

[Shodan]

To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Planas only claims and wears 9th degree.

I might study under Mr. Darryl Liner

:asian: :karate:

 

[Blindside]

I thought that rank was only reserved (in the Kenpo world) for Mr. Parker and everyone honored that.

Bwa hahhaahahahahahahahahahaha

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sorry, Shodan I'm not laughing at you, please see this link:

http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/10th-9thdegrees.htm

Lamont

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Shodan


I might study under Mr. Darryl Liner

:asian: :karate:

private lesson??????

 

[Shodan]

Well........now isn't that interesting- where did that list come from cuz on Mr. Planas' site it says he is a 9th degree and the last seminar I went to only a few months ago- our studio's flier said he was a 9th degree........I guess I just don't understand the whole thing. Maybe my info. has been wrong all along but I didn't think anyone claimed that rank out of respect for Mr. Parker.

As for you CoolKenpoDude- were you trying to slam me or was your question a serious one?

:asian: :karate:

 

[Bill Lear]

Shodan,

Mr. Planas was indeed promoted to tenth degree black belt in Hayfork, California last year. He doesn't acknowledge this rank, and he doesn't wear it. Kinda makes me wonder why he accepted it in the first place.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It sounds to me he got caught up in the moment and then came to reject the whole idea. Its ok to change your mind.

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
Shodan,

Mr. Planas was indeed promoted to tenth degree black belt in Hayfork, California last year. He doesn't acknowledge this rank, and he doesn't wear it. Kinda makes me wonder why he accepted it in the first place.

In 1990 if you can remember there was an article titled Who Is the Rightful Heir to Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate?. In that article Huk states his feelings about the "double bricks".

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/jan92/edparker/edparker.html

IMO I think Huk's supporters finally wore him down and he accepted the rank. Like you said Billy he doesn't acknowledge it or wear it. However if Tatum, Trejo, Hebler, Palanzo and Mills all can wear it, why can't Huk?

 

[dcence]

As I recall, there is no prohibition on multiple tenth degrees or multiple grandmasters, but the rank of "Senior Grandmaster" is reserved for the system founder. That is off the top of my head, so I could be off. I think it is in the Encyclopedia somewhere, but I lent mine to someone.

Derek

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Shodan


As for you CoolKenpoDude- were you trying to slam me or was your question a serious one?

:asian: :karate:

of course, my question is a serious one.

2 kind of lessons you can take to learn MA: public and private.

which one????

thanks

 

[Karazenpo]

Everybodys a sijo these days. I remember way back when (1960's) before I even started training that it was something to just be a Black Belt. Then came 'the more is better mindset, the egos, the politics, the greed and the rest of the bull. Now, let's be honest, who is really impressed when you hear someone's a 10th anymore? I don't mean someone you know and are quite aware of their abilities and truly deserving of the rank but someone you never heard of? Admit it, first thing you say to yourself, 'yeah right!, here we go!' There are so many 'founders' these days that if it were the wheel, it would have been re-invented a thousand times over! Look beneath the surface and all these systems are way more alike then different. Hey, just my thoughts, please don't take anything to heart. I'm sure there are others reading this that are also thinking the same thing, you have to be! Respectfully submitted.

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Everybodys a sijo these days. I remember way back when (1960's) before I even started training that it was something to just be a Black Belt. Then came 'the more is better mindset, the egos, the politics, the greed and the rest of the bull. Now, let's be honest, who is really impressed when you hear someone's a 10th anymore? I don't mean someone you know and are quite aware of their abilities and truly deserving of the rank but someone you never heard of? Admit it, first thing you say to yourself, 'yeah right!, here we go!' There are so many 'founders' these days that if it were the wheel, it would have been re-invented a thousand times over! Look beneath the surface and all these systems are way more alike then different. Hey, just my thoughts, please don't take anything to heart. I'm sure there are others reading this that are also thinking the same thing, you have to be! Respectfully submitted.

agree

let me put this into 1 perspective

HIGHER RANK means $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Seminar, promotion, all the good deeds come

i guess a guy gotta EAT, SLEEP

 

[Shodan]

CoolKenpoDude- My apologies, I read that wrong. I still go up to my "home" school once a month (in fact I have a lesson tonight!!) for private lessons with my instructor, so I imagine if I train with Mr. Liner, it will be mostly public.......maybe I can do an occassional private lesson though, will have to see if and how it all turns out.

As for the whole 10th degree thing- thanks for all the comments. From the beginning of my Kenpo days, I had heard that 10th was reserved........so now I guess the times have changed and I am having a hard time accepting it in this case. I just wonder if the ranks are not political after a certain point? I mean, you don't actually test for 10th, right, it is given you by a panel of others or something?

Last night, I was thinking, if Mr. Parker were suddenly alive today, how would he feel about all the 10th degrees and politics? Would he be fine with it or would he be like.......how the heck did you get up to my rank?!! Just a thought.....

:asian: :karate:

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Shodan

no hard feeling...sorry if i make you feel that way. Good luck with your training

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I too am amazed by the number of 10th Dan's in Kenpo. Frankly, I have nothing bad to say about any of them. But, it is rather silly too have so many. It sort of cheapens the rank -- kind of like being a VP at a Bank. If you search through the Kenpo General forum, you will find many long threads about 10th degrees, Kenpo Grandmasters, and similar topics.

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by dcence
As I recall, there is no prohibition on multiple tenth degrees or multiple grandmasters, but the rank of "Senior Grandmaster" is reserved for the system founder. That is off the top of my head, so I could be off. I think it is in the Encyclopedia somewhere, but I lent mine to someone.

Derek

The way that Rank was outlined in the encyclopedia was done different than in the Infinite Insights book... Check it out when you get the chance dude. :asian:

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
In 1990 if you can remember there was an article titled Who Is the Rightful Heir to Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate?. In that article Huk states his feelings about the "double bricks".

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/jan92/edparker/edparker.html

IMO I think Huk's supporters finally wore him down and he accepted the rank. Like you said Billy he doesn't acknowledge it or wear it. However if Tatum, Trejo, Hebler, Palanzo and Mills all can wear it, why can't Huk?

Mr. Planas should wear it only if he feels comfortable with it. If the "double bricks" were good enough for Mr. Parker, then why aren't they good enough for Mr. Planas?

By the way... here's an article in which Mr. Parker himself names Larry Tatum as his protege:
Click here :asian:

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
By the way... here's an article in which Mr. Parker himself names Larry Tatum as his protege:
Click here :asian:

If that is the case, than the right for Mr. Tatum to wear the rank is without question.