Ranks, moving, and life getting in the way?

[dvcochran]

Pretty much. I’m saying that none of that really matters, if you are a skilled salesperson. Your business acumen matters. If you have it, you can succeed (legally) if the veracity of your origin story is bogus and even your skill level is low. I may be wrong, but I’m unaware of any successful civil or criminal fraud case against a martial arts or self defense instructor.

I can't specifically quote documented cases of fraud in the legal environment but there are plenty of effectively equal situations where a school is dissolved because of misrepresentation or quality.
To me, it is not the idea of selling ice water to an Eskimo but rather selling a painted horse. In the former, the sale is for water and the product is known up front. Everything is out in the open and the salesperson is a convincing orator. In the latter, the salesperson is selling a lie, plain and simple. In the former there is ethics, in the latter there is none. The word acumen is being misused in your analogy (the ability to make good judgments and quick decisions, typically in a particular domain.). Your analogy comes dangerously close to giving credit to the McDojo's of the world.

 

[Steve]

I can't specifically quote documented cases of fraud in the legal environment but there are plenty of effectively equal situations where a school is dissolved because of misrepresentation or quality.
To me, it is not the idea of selling ice water to an Eskimo but rather selling a painted horse. In the former, the sale is for water and the product is known up front. Everything is out in the open and the salesperson is a convincing orator. In the latter, the salesperson is selling a lie, plain and simple. In the former there is ethics, in the latter there is none. The word acumen is being misused in your analogy (the ability to make good judgments and quick decisions, typically in a particular domain.). Your analogy comes dangerously close to giving credit to the McDojo's of the world.

Well, we would need to define mcdojo. I'm not endorsing anything. I'm observing an objective fact. Let me put it this way. It's all about the narrative. I invent a product, and call it steve-jitsu. I market the product, and I am careful to avoid application. I am charismatic, athletic, and look like a martial artist. I'm also a good salesperson, and have conveniently positioned myself so that there is no real application for my art. I use confirmation bias to highlight any instances where folks who train my style miraculously survive an altercation. I could make a lot of dough, and there's nothing you can do about it. In fact, if you go too far, you might be the one on the wrong side of a slander or libel suit.

Sure, that sounds like a mcdojo, but how is that different from most of the self defense training programs?

 

[dvcochran]

Well, we would need to define mcdojo. I'm not endorsing anything. I'm observing an objective fact. Let me put it this way. It's all about the narrative. I invent a product, and call it steve-jitsu. I market the product, and I am careful to avoid application. I am charismatic, athletic, and look like a martial artist. I'm also a good salesperson, and have conveniently positioned myself so that there is no real application for my art. I use confirmation bias to highlight any instances where folks who train my style miraculously survive an altercation. I could make a lot of dough, and there's nothing you can do about it. In fact, if you go too far, you might be the one on the wrong side of a slander or libel suit.

Sure, that sounds like a mcdojo, but how is that different from most of the self defense training programs?

Sounds like a painted horse to me.

 

[Steve]

Sounds like a painted horse to me.

You think self defense courses are painted horses? Me too. And there's not a thing you can do about them.

 

[dvcochran]

You think self defense courses are painted horses? Me too. And there's not a thing you can do about them.

I will not go that far with all SD courses. Possibly ones that sell SD as their only product and as a quick solution. I do not think there is anything practical about that model. Out right false advertising.

 

[Steve]

I will not go that far with all SD courses. Possibly ones that sell SD as their only product and as a quick solution. I do not think there is anything practical about that model. Out right false advertising.

Why not? . Please explain how what I mentioned above is different from a middle aged ninja in Australia with no experience selling self defense to hapless students?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, we would need to define mcdojo. I'm not endorsing anything. I'm observing an objective fact. Let me put it this way. It's all about the narrative. I invent a product, and call it steve-jitsu. I market the product, and I am careful to avoid application. I am charismatic, athletic, and look like a martial artist. I'm also a good salesperson, and have conveniently positioned myself so that there is no real application for my art. I use confirmation bias to highlight any instances where folks who train my style miraculously survive an altercation. I could make a lot of dough, and there's nothing you can do about it. In fact, if you go too far, you might be the one on the wrong side of a slander or libel suit.

Sure, that sounds like a mcdojo, but how is that different from most of the self defense training programs?

You continue to use your own idea of what "self defense" instructors sell, using confirmation bias from specific examples to support it. In fact, "self defense" is a focus, not an outcome. At drop bear's MMA gym, they could easily (and might do for all I know) spend a little time discussing some points around how altercations work, some of the variables that exist outside competitions, etc., and they'd fit my definition of a self defense program. It's not snake oil, because it's not the product - it's just an area of focus within the training.

You've never gotten that in all our discussions.

 

[Steve]

You continue to use your own idea of what "self defense" instructors sell, using confirmation bias from specific examples to support it. In fact, "self defense" is a focus, not an outcome. At drop bear's MMA gym, they could easily (and might do for all I know) spend a little time discussing some points around how altercations work, some of the variables that exist outside competitions, etc., and they'd fit my definition of a self defense program. It's not snake oil, because it's not the product - it's just an area of focus within the training.

You've never gotten that in all our discussions.

I actually don't do this at all. I'm not talking about aLL self-defense instructors. Only those with with no relevant experience who sell something they make up. Painted horse, as @dvcochran would say. But I also think your definition of self defense is self serving.

And if you sell something, it's a product. If you sell a product based on fear and perceived need, in a manner to avoid any possible repurcussions for failure, it is directly analogous to snake oil. Same basic pitch. Gee, Ms. Jones. I'm sorry your husband was killed by a mugger. If only he had trained longer. Now... When are you starting class?

And again, just to be clear, I think some folks have the background to teach actual skill. But not as many as who do teach. I mean, how the heck do you know how an actual altercation might work? Drop bear trains MMA, and worked a door? He can speak to that. I couldnt, and I don't think you can, either,.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I actually don't do this at all. I'm not talking about aLL self-defense instructors. Only those with with no relevant experience who sell something they make up. Painted horse, as @dvcochran would say. But I also think your definition of self defense is self serving.

And if you sell something, it's a product. If you sell a product based on fear and perceived need, in a manner to avoid any possible repurcussions for failure, it is directly analogous to snake oil. Same basic pitch. Gee, Ms. Jones. I'm sorry your husband was killed by a mugger. If only he had trained longer. Now... When are you starting class?

And again, just to be clear, I think some folks have the background to teach actual skill. But not as many as who do teach. I mean, how the heck do you know how an actual altercation might work? Drop bear trains MMA, and worked a door? He can speak to that. I couldnt, and I don't think you can, either,.

We've been down this road before. I don't sell based on fear. I never have. And self-defense isn't the product. The product is MA training. SD is simply the focus. I teach people how to fight and how to escape fights, and simply wrap that in some context. That you don't think I can do so is your own bias. Folks I've trained who used their training in their profession seem to disagree, and they have significantly more information to work with than you do.

 

[Steve]

We've been down this road before. I don't sell based on fear. I never have. And self-defense isn't the product. The product is MA training. SD is simply the focus. I teach people how to fight and how to escape fights, and simply wrap that in some context. That you don't think I can do so is your own bias. Folks I've trained who used their training in their profession seem to disagree, and they have significantly more information to work with than you do.

That is exactly the kind of sales pitch I referred to earlier.

 

[dvcochran]

You continue to use your own idea of what "self defense" instructors sell, using confirmation bias from specific examples to support it. In fact, "self defense" is a focus, not an outcome. At drop bear's MMA gym, they could easily (and might do for all I know) spend a little time discussing some points around how altercations work, some of the variables that exist outside competitions, etc., and they'd fit my definition of a self defense program. It's not snake oil, because it's not the product - it's just an area of focus within the training.

You've never gotten that in all our discussions.

Very much agree and your post is right on point. The best case scenario for learning SD is as a byproduct of a well rounded TMA/FMA class the includes real world application. There is no quick fix.

 

[lklawson]

Is it possible you are reading into my post things which are not there? I don't see anything above that conflicts with my point.

I suppose. It sure looked to me like you were arguing that Boxing, because it's not "small," has to have ranks: "...operating without rank or belts is unsustainable in a large organization or a competitive style of martial arts."

The only ranking that Boxing has is wins. And not everyone competes. In fact, competition really is a young man's game and a lot of people box past youth and for a lot of reasons other than competing. Past that, it's nothing more than the gym pecking-order. So I contest what I think I'm seeing your argument as.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Cus D’Amato had an elite professional trainer rank. So did Angelo Dundee and the like. There’s no formal rank, but everyone knows who’s who.

If a relatively unknown trainer relocated and went into a new gym, they’d know where he stands once they see him working with boxers. If a guy who doesn’t compete anymore or never competed joined a new gym where people didn’t know him, they’d know where he stands after a little while.

There’s no formal rank, but there’s acknowledgment of skill, be it personal skill and/or skill at teaching.

And that’s in practically every physical endeavor. Join a bar league softball team and people will know your skill level quickly enough. There’s no rank, but there’s a batting order. And there’s starters and subs. Or join any other sport and it’s the same thing. No formal rank, but there’s a recognition of skill level.

Exactly.

It's a skills-based, I-can-see-it, pecking order, not a formal rank as it appears Steve is suggesting.

Pecking orders are just that. And you're right that it's human nature to put them into EVERYTHING. If a pecking order is "rank" then your entire congregation at Church has "ranks," the tellers at the bank have "ranks," the kids sledding down the snowy hill have "ranks," guitar players and pop banks have "ranks," line-backers have "ranks," audio technicians have "ranks," the mommy get together club has "ranks," the book club has "ranks," ...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exactly.

It's a skills-based, I-can-see-it, pecking order, not a formal rank as it appears Steve is suggesting.

Pecking orders are just that. And you're right that it's human nature to put them into EVERYTHING. If a pecking order is "rank" then your entire congregation at Church has "ranks," the tellers at the bank have "ranks," the kids sledding down the snowy hill have "ranks," guitar players and pop banks have "ranks," line-backers have "ranks," audio technicians have "ranks," the mommy get together club has "ranks," the book club has "ranks," ...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I read that as Steve's point - that rank, at least in part, is just a representation of the pecking order.

 

[Steve]

I suppose. It sure looked to me like you were arguing that Boxing, because it's not "small," has to have ranks: "...operating without rank or belts is unsustainable in a large organization or a competitive style of martial arts."

The only ranking that Boxing has is wins. And not everyone competes. In fact, competition really is a young man's game and a lot of people box past youth and for a lot of reasons other than competing. Past that, it's nothing more than the gym pecking-order. So I contest what I think I'm seeing your argument as.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Sure. Not quite what I was saying. The Size I was referring to was size of an organization. Boxing may have some of that but the ranks in boxing are organic from competition. And as you said, when one doesn't compete, the need doesn't exist. So, in boxing, if you never compete, you never really gain "rank." But if you gain rank, you never lose it. It stays with you. Its early so I hope That helps explain what I meant.

 

[Steve]

Gentlemen. I offer you this health tonic I call aikido. It will restore your vigorous nature, give you energy, and keep you healthy. Full disclosure, I am not a doctor, but self defense, it is a focus, and many have noticed a benefit. Mr jones finds it helps with his diverticulitis and gout.

 

[Steve]

Exactly.

It's a skills-based, I-can-see-it, pecking order, not a formal rank as it appears Steve is suggesting.

Pecking orders are just that. And you're right that it's human nature to put them into EVERYTHING. If a pecking order is "rank" then your entire congregation at Church has "ranks," the tellers at the bank have "ranks," the kids sledding down the snowy hill have "ranks," guitar players and pop banks have "ranks," line-backers have "ranks," audio technicians have "ranks," the mommy get together club has "ranks," the book club has "ranks," ...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I think the issue is I'm speaking about rank broadly and offering examples. You seem to have locked into an example and confused it with my point. Ad I said before, i don't see any conflict between your points and mine.

To be clear, my point is that rank happens organically and is unavoidable when necessary. It may be imposed where not needed, but it will never not exist where it is needed.

 

[dvcochran]

Exactly.

It's a skills-based, I-can-see-it, pecking order, not a formal rank as it appears Steve is suggesting.

Pecking orders are just that. And you're right that it's human nature to put them into EVERYTHING. If a pecking order is "rank" then your entire congregation at Church has "ranks," the tellers at the bank have "ranks," the kids sledding down the snowy hill have "ranks," guitar players and pop banks have "ranks," line-backers have "ranks," audio technicians have "ranks," the mommy get together club has "ranks," the book club has "ranks," ...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

That is true if you let your imagination run wild and take everything to the extreme. That is getting silly. There is a logical point to ranking or structuring certain things. Like the grades in grade school. We are smart enough not to need it for everyday things, although I am a "put everything in the right box thinker". Why is it important that you know a physician has a Doctorate degree in the necessary field before they cut you open? The answer is obvious. Why is it wrong to hold MA ranking to the same high level?

 

[Steve]

Exactly.

It's a skills-based, I-can-see-it, pecking order, not a formal rank as it appears Steve is suggesting.

Pecking orders are just that. And you're right that it's human nature to put them into EVERYTHING. If a pecking order is "rank" then your entire congregation at Church has "ranks," the tellers at the bank have "ranks," the kids sledding down the snowy hill have "ranks," guitar players and pop banks have "ranks," line-backers have "ranks," audio technicians have "ranks," the mommy get together club has "ranks," the book club has "ranks," ...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Just read this a little more carefully with my glasses on and everything. I think you're mixing a lot of things up, and include above some situations where rank does exist, and some where rank would not be needed, and may not exist.

Bank tellers do have rank, because it's a profession. There are junior and senior tellers, and I would suspect that if they stick with it, they move to higher paying, more prestigious jobs as they gain more experience, which may include management. While we might not think of these as ranks in a traditional sense, I think they're analogous.

Line backers also have rank. There is the guy who is in the starting line up, and those who back him up. On a more macro level, there is the NFL, college varsity, junior varsity, high school varsity, etc. And these are even further broken out. Division I vs Division II. These are all examples of ranking structures. Saying you're a starting QB for the Bears, who got your football black belt from Lloyd Carr at the University of Michigan, all says something about your lineage.

I agree that not everything has ranks, though there may be a pecking order. As I said earlier, if it's a small group where there is no internal competition and no connection to a larger organization, there's no need for rank. Book club, for example. But if your book club starts competing in a national "Battle of the Books" trivia event, there will naturally arise some kind of ranking structure, internally to the club, and externally to rank your club against your competition.

 

[Steve]

That you don't think I can do so is your own bias.

Quick comment on this line. You seem to use the term "bias" as though it is inherently negative. Bias is essentially just an opinion. It can be an informed one or not. What you're trying to suggest is that my bias is unreasonable, which is possible, though I don't think so. But the important thing is, you also have a bias. I believe yours is unreasonable, because you think you can teach something you've never done.

Do you think a person who has never managed staff or lead a team can make his or her living teaching management skills or leadership? I don't. At best, you might get a person who can teach a sliver of it out of context, like a coaching model or conflict management. But they'll never really teach you to manage conflict. They can only teach you the Thomas Killman model. That's a bias I have. Really, it's the same bias I apply to anyone who is selling me a service.

And to be clear, there are a lot of folks out there who have never really managed staff, who are making their livings working for companies who farm them out. Some have even developed their own "styles" which they then "sell" as a package to companies, just like the painted horses referred to elsewhere. I don't think they should, and I avoid hiring them whenever I can. I have a bias against them that stems from a belief that someone who has experience can impart tacit knowledge, which is vital. Someone without experience can only teach from the book.

Self defense is the same thing