OP
Rich_
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #22
In case anyone's interested, I'm a ROSS instructor in the UK and our homepage is at http://www.formauk.org
OP
RMAX.tv
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #24
http://www.buza.ru/
http://www.tonb.tyumen.ru/~denisov/buza1.htm
http://www.warriors.newmail.ru/buza.htm
I apologize for not having the opportunity to translate for you, but you can find online translators to do the job... or any other Russian language readers on board. If you have specific questions, feel free to drop me a line at [email protected] for I unfortunately rarely have the opportunity to access the WWW any longer.
Also, check out Coach Alexander Retuinskih's "Russian-Style Hand to Hand Combat Manual" which features historical information on Tverian Buza.
Coach Sonnon
www.RMAX.tv
http://www.tonb.tyumen.ru/~denisov/buza1.htm
http://www.warriors.newmail.ru/buza.htm
I apologize for not having the opportunity to translate for you, but you can find online translators to do the job... or any other Russian language readers on board. If you have specific questions, feel free to drop me a line at [email protected] for I unfortunately rarely have the opportunity to access the WWW any longer.
Also, check out Coach Alexander Retuinskih's "Russian-Style Hand to Hand Combat Manual" which features historical information on Tverian Buza.
Coach Sonnon
www.RMAX.tv
OP
shawnm
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #25
Nice website Rich
OP
sweeper
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #26
shawnm, "I encourage anyone interested in ROSS or System to go to the sources and do some research into their systems"
besides the web sites what real info is there to research? It's not like I can go to my local library and look stuff up, and if I don't have a local instructor than what else is there to do (besides look on the web sites) ?
besides the web sites what real info is there to research? It's not like I can go to my local library and look stuff up, and if I don't have a local instructor than what else is there to do (besides look on the web sites) ?
Wait for a local seiminar I suppose!
OP
Rich_
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #29
Thanks all...
Arnisador - Scott's provided some useful links there, there are translators available through foreignword.com (although obviously the English that comes out is a little broken!).
In short, Buza is an old Russian martial tradition. A lot of the movements in traditional Russian dance (think of Cossack dancing for an idea) contain the combat movements or are conditioning drills for combat. It is also a root influence on the ROSS system.
At its most basic level, it's easiest to teach as escapes from grips; however, the whole system of movement can be built up from this and integrated into a flowing fighting style.
Also, I'd second Scott's recommendation of Gen. Retuinskih's book as a good introduction to the style.
Arnisador - Scott's provided some useful links there, there are translators available through foreignword.com (although obviously the English that comes out is a little broken!).
In short, Buza is an old Russian martial tradition. A lot of the movements in traditional Russian dance (think of Cossack dancing for an idea) contain the combat movements or are conditioning drills for combat. It is also a root influence on the ROSS system.
At its most basic level, it's easiest to teach as escapes from grips; however, the whole system of movement can be built up from this and integrated into a flowing fighting style.
Also, I'd second Scott's recommendation of Gen. Retuinskih's book as a good introduction to the style.
OP
shawnm
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #30
Sweeper,
The websites and the descriptions that they offer are a starting point. I would then suggest people move on to forums and contacting the individuals from these or any other system personally with your questions. The next possible step is to take a look at some of the videos that are out there. In terms of Systema and ROSS there are quite a few on the market.
Talk to different people from these systems, get feedback and most importantly experience the systems any way you can either by video or by attending a seminar.
Before I got interested in ROSS there was no one in Canada to contact. So I took the path of websites, forums, emails to Scott, contacting other ROSS people, videos and then seminars. That is a lot of research and a lot of time.
hope that helps.
The websites and the descriptions that they offer are a starting point. I would then suggest people move on to forums and contacting the individuals from these or any other system personally with your questions. The next possible step is to take a look at some of the videos that are out there. In terms of Systema and ROSS there are quite a few on the market.
Talk to different people from these systems, get feedback and most importantly experience the systems any way you can either by video or by attending a seminar.
Before I got interested in ROSS there was no one in Canada to contact. So I took the path of websites, forums, emails to Scott, contacting other ROSS people, videos and then seminars. That is a lot of research and a lot of time.
hope that helps.
OP
Zephyr
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #31
I am often reminded of the quote someone of note made, that ROSS is as open, as free and as flexible as Jeet Kun Do in its very application, or maybe more so. . .
Arthur
Blue Belt
Hi,
My name is Arthur, I'm pretty new here on this forum. I teach Systema in Massachusetts.
I saw this thread, and felt some of the assumptions made about ROSS by Systema practitioners/enthusiasts were fairly inaccurate. I also felt that some of the stamens by Systema practitioners/enthusiasts about Systema were less than accurate. I felt maybe I should post.
In the past, there were a lot of threads on the web, where these two Russian Martial arts were placed in opposition to each other. Sometimes by innocent ignorance, and sometimes by individuals with an agenda these things happened, the particulars matter not now.
When I see threads like this I can't help but think old wounds that should never have existed may be reopened.
ROSS and Systema are surely different. I see plenty of differences, and I'm sure ROSS practitioners do too. However these two arts also share quite a bit. Both spring from a common culture, science and people. There are movements exhibited by the practitioners of each that can look identical. There are also movements embraced by practitioners of each that are foreign to the other.
The teaching methodologies differ, but if compared to the training paradigm of other nations martial heritage, would look very similar.
Just as we can look at a myriad of Chinese martial arts which vary greatly, yet still have a core of training ideas, the same can be seen in these two Russian Martial Arts.
Unfortunately the communication and interaction between these two camps of Russian Martial Art has been less than ideal. Likely, we will continue to have misperceptions about each others art, until those changes.
I posit that, a more constructive endeavor than answering about ones perceptions of the others art on a web board is to go out and visit with fellow instructors of differing arts within our collective culture of Russian Martial Art.
I'd like to commend Matt Powell of the Kadochinikov System for taking the lead in doing just that. I am now going to write several emails attempting to further that end myself.
Sincerely,
Arthur Sennott
My name is Arthur, I'm pretty new here on this forum. I teach Systema in Massachusetts.
I saw this thread, and felt some of the assumptions made about ROSS by Systema practitioners/enthusiasts were fairly inaccurate. I also felt that some of the stamens by Systema practitioners/enthusiasts about Systema were less than accurate. I felt maybe I should post.
In the past, there were a lot of threads on the web, where these two Russian Martial arts were placed in opposition to each other. Sometimes by innocent ignorance, and sometimes by individuals with an agenda these things happened, the particulars matter not now.
When I see threads like this I can't help but think old wounds that should never have existed may be reopened.
ROSS and Systema are surely different. I see plenty of differences, and I'm sure ROSS practitioners do too. However these two arts also share quite a bit. Both spring from a common culture, science and people. There are movements exhibited by the practitioners of each that can look identical. There are also movements embraced by practitioners of each that are foreign to the other.
The teaching methodologies differ, but if compared to the training paradigm of other nations martial heritage, would look very similar.
Just as we can look at a myriad of Chinese martial arts which vary greatly, yet still have a core of training ideas, the same can be seen in these two Russian Martial Arts.
Unfortunately the communication and interaction between these two camps of Russian Martial Art has been less than ideal. Likely, we will continue to have misperceptions about each others art, until those changes.
I posit that, a more constructive endeavor than answering about ones perceptions of the others art on a web board is to go out and visit with fellow instructors of differing arts within our collective culture of Russian Martial Art.
I'd like to commend Matt Powell of the Kadochinikov System for taking the lead in doing just that. I am now going to write several emails attempting to further that end myself.
Sincerely,
Arthur Sennott
SonnyPuzikas
Yellow Belt
Have to agree with what Arthur said
.Would be very sad to see same mistakes made in RMA circle, that plagued most of MA.
Regards,
Sonny Puzikas
Progressive Combat Concepts
Tampa,FL
.Would be very sad to see same mistakes made in RMA circle, that plagued most of MA.Regards,
Sonny Puzikas
Progressive Combat Concepts
Tampa,FL
OP
GouRonin
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #34
Hiya Sonny. Welcome. What took you guys so long to get here?
OP
ksys
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #35
Hello folks,
I am not usually one to post on forums, but a student referred me to this forum. It seems for a while everyone has been saying they wanted an unmoderated forum for RMA discussion...it has happened, and how civil it is! I congratulate you guys on a good forum!
I want to thank Arthur for his kind words...while on tour with one of my students who is an entertainer, I got the chance to meet with and talk to many great martial artists, and give seminars and clinics in some great place...it was a wonderful learning experience, and I want to thank guys like Arthur who I have spoken with, and hope to work with further in the future.
I think we are seeing a very interesting situation occuring right now...A new martial art culture has come to America, and survived it's initial introduction to work it's way to recognition. That is Russian Martial Art.
It has it's branches in the USA...diversity and many ways one can train in it. Now, suddenly, we are seeing people and children who instead of going to a karate or tae kwon do class....they are going to Russian martial art class (I teach a few of these lucky kids). This is an amazing transition...when I look at the first generation of Russian Martial Artist's practicing in America, I am proud to be one of them. I can't wait to have a child to pass it to them...well, I can wait a little while
The RMA community is young and prosperous...and it is a great gift to those who practice. While we are all tasked with the safeguarding the purity of and the protection of our individual styles and systems, we are all part of one greater culture that has been given to us...some by chance, some through just plain bugging people I'm the first to say I don't agree with some methods, etc., but in the end we are all in one family, and cousins in RMA.
I think we all recognize the gift that RMA is...each time I teach, I am humbled thinking of what they know in Russia, and thankful to God for the gift He gave me. I hope, plainly speaking, that in the future petty things like money and ego will not tarnish all of the work done toward the legitimization of RMA in the circles beyond the RMA world. I would hate to see someone not find the right training, and end up just not training in the Russian arts due to "politics"....and then miss out on such a great gift.
In saying this, I hope to see in the future a point where we have an RMA festival, where everyone comes together...Systema, ROSS, Kadochnikov System, Sambo schools, the local guy teaching what he learned in Russia, I mean everyone....and we have show our diversity in methods and practices, but unity in Russian Martial Art.
Cheers!
M
ps...our site has had MASSIVE problems, but everything is finally fixed. Please excuse the mess, as some of you have called and emailed and asked when it will be fixed. It is!
:
I am not usually one to post on forums, but a student referred me to this forum. It seems for a while everyone has been saying they wanted an unmoderated forum for RMA discussion...it has happened, and how civil it is! I congratulate you guys on a good forum!
I want to thank Arthur for his kind words...while on tour with one of my students who is an entertainer, I got the chance to meet with and talk to many great martial artists, and give seminars and clinics in some great place...it was a wonderful learning experience, and I want to thank guys like Arthur who I have spoken with, and hope to work with further in the future.
I think we are seeing a very interesting situation occuring right now...A new martial art culture has come to America, and survived it's initial introduction to work it's way to recognition. That is Russian Martial Art.
It has it's branches in the USA...diversity and many ways one can train in it. Now, suddenly, we are seeing people and children who instead of going to a karate or tae kwon do class....they are going to Russian martial art class (I teach a few of these lucky kids). This is an amazing transition...when I look at the first generation of Russian Martial Artist's practicing in America, I am proud to be one of them. I can't wait to have a child to pass it to them...well, I can wait a little while
The RMA community is young and prosperous...and it is a great gift to those who practice. While we are all tasked with the safeguarding the purity of and the protection of our individual styles and systems, we are all part of one greater culture that has been given to us...some by chance, some through just plain bugging people
I'm the first to say I don't agree with some methods, etc., but in the end we are all in one family, and cousins in RMA. I think we all recognize the gift that RMA is...each time I teach, I am humbled thinking of what they know in Russia, and thankful to God for the gift He gave me. I hope, plainly speaking, that in the future petty things like money and ego will not tarnish all of the work done toward the legitimization of RMA in the circles beyond the RMA world. I would hate to see someone not find the right training, and end up just not training in the Russian arts due to "politics"....and then miss out on such a great gift.
In saying this, I hope to see in the future a point where we have an RMA festival, where everyone comes together...Systema, ROSS, Kadochnikov System, Sambo schools, the local guy teaching what he learned in Russia, I mean everyone....and we have show our diversity in methods and practices, but unity in Russian Martial Art.
Cheers!
M
ps...our site has had MASSIVE problems, but everything is finally fixed. Please excuse the mess, as some of you have called and emailed and asked when it will be fixed. It is!
:
OP
sweeper
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #36
I don't know who said that But I have got to say that was on my mind when reading on the ROSS page, To bad I havn't had time, this is one key point of intrest in martial arts for me. One thing tough, it sounded like alot more science went into the creation of ROSS than into the creation of Jeet Kune Do.
OP
tmanifold
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #37
I would disagree. Alot of science went in to JKD but it was western science of the 1960-70s. It is well known that the russians went in directions that the west didn't even think about with some area's of science. Also the ROSS page throws in a lot of Scientific Buzzwords that I think just baffle the non-initiate. I don't argue that these principles were used but the buzzwords may explain why you thought it was more scientific.
Tony
OP
Zephyr
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #38
well, I think you are both correct
There is no doubt, ROSS has had a great deal of research and science applied to it. Thus its most present form.
Don't know enough about JKD to say much with certainty, thus my quote of someone else who did know for sure.
I imagine the two ways would complement each other in practice and training. I also wonder, and maybe others can answer for me - but would JKD training and ROSS training done weekly overlap on each other in ways that would ideally complement gaps or weaknesses in the other?
Just a thought.
There is no doubt, ROSS has had a great deal of research and science applied to it. Thus its most present form.
Don't know enough about JKD to say much with certainty, thus my quote of someone else who did know for sure.
I imagine the two ways would complement each other in practice and training. I also wonder, and maybe others can answer for me - but would JKD training and ROSS training done weekly overlap on each other in ways that would ideally complement gaps or weaknesses in the other?
Just a thought.
OP
Rich_
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #39
Interesting points raised... the Jun Fan JKD I've seen had fairly limited input from a strictly scientific point of view - it was all empirically derived by Bruce Lee. I know a lot of modern JKD takes a lot of sports science into account, though.
There are similarities in the systems, but also significant differences. With their openness to other styles and lack of defined 'curriculum', they both support and benefit from cross-training in other styles, and can both be applied as philosophies to the other styles; a sort of synergy.
The principal differences between the two lie in the scope (ROSS covers health and movement, JKD covers purely combat), root cultures (Chinese vs. Russian) and, where JKD emphasises technique, ROSS emphasises principles. Thus, if you feel that one aspect or another is not covered by your current training, by all means cross-train in the other!
Oh, and don't be intimidated by scientific buzz-words, the meaning beneath is simple enough! Part of the problem is translating Russian concepts into the English language - just look at how many different translations of words like 'karate' or 'tai chi chuan' can be attempted, just to get across the precise meaning of words that have only imprecise analogues between languages.
There are similarities in the systems, but also significant differences. With their openness to other styles and lack of defined 'curriculum', they both support and benefit from cross-training in other styles, and can both be applied as philosophies to the other styles; a sort of synergy.
The principal differences between the two lie in the scope (ROSS covers health and movement, JKD covers purely combat), root cultures (Chinese vs. Russian) and, where JKD emphasises technique, ROSS emphasises principles. Thus, if you feel that one aspect or another is not covered by your current training, by all means cross-train in the other!
Oh, and don't be intimidated by scientific buzz-words, the meaning beneath is simple enough! Part of the problem is translating Russian concepts into the English language - just look at how many different translations of words like 'karate' or 'tai chi chuan' can be attempted, just to get across the precise meaning of words that have only imprecise analogues between languages.
About no curriculum, all the people I know who train have it on paper, and can pull it off verbatim, just not eveyone chooses to follow it unless going for instructorship.
And about there be no the technical aspect. If you take a seminar by Guro Dan, there are usually only three or four concepts that he is trying to get across in all the material he covers.
I also know that both Guro Dan and Larry Hartsel study Yoga for their health, as well as the history and culture of the arts they study.
Not everyone wants the whole pie right away. It takes time to see what is there, and you get to pick and choose what you want to take with you.
Just some thoughts.
And about there be no the technical aspect. If you take a seminar by Guro Dan, there are usually only three or four concepts that he is trying to get across in all the material he covers.
I also know that both Guro Dan and Larry Hartsel study Yoga for their health, as well as the history and culture of the arts they study.
Not everyone wants the whole pie right away. It takes time to see what is there, and you get to pick and choose what you want to take with you.
Just some thoughts.
