question

[MA-Caver]

I have a close friend who is studying Ninjutsu. He has been for a couple of years. But there are things that he says when he speaks of his art compared to mine (Jeet Kun Do) that I have to give a grain of salt but not wholly go for the entire bait.
Please understand that I have a respect for the art (Ninjutsu) and it's orgins as I know them.

I'm seeking clairification, that's all.
*First of all my friend says that the art is banned in all tournements because it's too deadly.
*It is THE most deadiest art of all MA
*It is THE only TRUE MA.. all others are just fancy self-defense techniques and don't follow the spirit of MA or guide the spirit.
*Ninjutsu was the original martial art and all others derived from it years ago in China.
*Within two years he's already a 5th level black belt (???)
*The art has only been in the U.S. (formally taught) for five years.
*True ninjas were never used as assassins... only those pretending to be ninjas so the "blame" can be placed on them unjustly.... (speaking of old medieval Japan feudalism).
and so forth

Now obviously I don't know much about the art to refute my friend but many of his statements have struck me as... uhh, not-quite-right.

If there is a SERIOUS website which gives the ACCURATE history of ninjutsu and it's history here in the U.S. that would be a time/space saver here. I found one site out of many and it was full of pictures of people wearing the traditonal stereotypical mask gear and doing a lot of silly photos so I didn't want to waste an evening trying to find what I'm looking for.

Again, I speak and question respectfully to those who are serious students/masters of the art and also do not seek to belittle my friend who is a serious student but I strive for accuracy whenever and where-ever possible. :asian:

 

[Cryozombie]

I hope you are joking with this post.

No the art is not banned from all tournaments. Its not a sport art so most practitioners wont take it into tournaments.

Its not "The Most Deadly"... no single art is.

Ninpo is a lot about the spirit, but I would never say its the "One True Art" thats a buncj of hooey

"The original Martial Art" ??? No... most accounts I have read is its a development from an art brought back from China named So-o... (The monk's name, not the arts name)

5th Dan in 2 years? Is he studying Ninpo or TaeKwondo?

The art has been in the US since at least the mid 80's... as best as i can tell thats more than 5 years.

I cant say never used as assassins... but he is right in the fact that was not thier Role... thats "Hollywoodism" at its best... (Or whatever the Japan Cinema equivalent is in movies like Shinobi No Mono)

Dot feel bad, his statements dont strike me as quite right either and I have studied at 3 different Ninpo Dojo's...

 

[Lawman9]

5th Dan in two years? Dang....i'm in the wrong program!!

 

[Jay Bell]

*First of all my friend says that the art is banned in all tournements because it's too deadly.

Not in the least. Ninpo isn't *banned* from tournements, people that study Ninpo just don't typically take part in them. It's not a good tournement art.

It is THE most deadiest art of all MA

I honestly don't understand where he got this...he seems to by hyping himself pretty good.

*It is THE only TRUE MA.. all others are just fancy self-defense techniques and don't follow the spirit of MA or guide the spirit.

*sigh* Not hardly

*Ninjutsu was the original martial art and all others derived from it years ago in China.

No

Within two years he's already a 5th level black belt (???)

He's either A) Lying or B) In a bunk art

The art has only been in the U.S. (formally taught) for five years

Since the late 70's/early 80's

True ninjas were never used as assassins... only those pretending to be ninjas so the "blame" can be placed on them unjustly....

Er....yes they were.

No... most accounts I have read is its a development from an art brought back from China named So-o...

His name seems to have been Zhang Zi Liang. He brought methods over that developed over time into Ninjutsu.

No offense intended, but it seems that your friend is a bit delusional in regards to what is and isn't Ninjutsu. This isn't necessarily pointing the finger at him specifically...he could just be buying into someone's rediculous claims..

 

[Bujingodai]

Really doesn't sound like and Kan or serious independent. Most of them just don't have that kind of ego attached to them. Jay is right it just isn't good for tournament. It's just not designed that way. Though I believe one could take Ninpo concepts and apply them somewhat.

Yeah sounds like a Hollywood graduate.

Mind you the 5th dan in 2 years isn't too far off some of the stories from the Kan I know of. There is a teacher I know, who is a Sandan whom I assited when he was a 10th kyu maybe 4yrs ago.
To be honest each person is different. But 2 yrs does seem a wee bit on the extreme side. Took me 7 to get my 1st

 

[don bohrer]

MACaver,

What's really important here is your training... not his! It's nice that you are looking out for your friend, but I doubt you'll win over your friend. I think if he really wants the truth he'll have to discover it for himself. Perhaps you could invite him to train at your school for a short time, and maybe his eyes will open a little.

don

 

[heretic888]

quote: No... most accounts I have read is its a development from an art brought back from China named So-o...

His name seems to have been Zhang Zi Liang. He brought methods over that developed over time into Ninjutsu.

Hmmm.... would anyone care to elaborate on this a bit??

Laterz.

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by heretic888
Hmmm.... would anyone care to elaborate on this a bit??

Laterz.

The History of
Togakure Ryu Ninpo

So-o was the name of a monk at a monastery on Mount Hiei-zan. As was a custom in those times he left his home to live for three years in a cave, subjecting himself to the hardship of nature in order to discover truth and enlightenment. It was after a mysterious dream that he formed the Tendai Shugendo sect of Buddhism, and established the headquarters of the Tendai monastery at Hiei-zan. These monks still exist today and some are still engaged in Shugendo, or mountain asceticism: purifying one's self by trial and hardship.

Near to Hiei-zan was a small village called Togakure, in the prefecture of Shinano. Here in approximately 1161, Daisuke Nishina was born into a Samurai family. Sometime during his early life, he studied at the Tendai monastery on Togakure Mountain (Mount Hiei-zan) near his village. These early experiences were to play an important role later when Daisuke was to establish a system of fighting, survival and infiltration.

It is important to understand the events leading up to the creation of Togakure Ryu Ninpo. Daisuke Nishina's father was Yukihiro Nishina, who was a highly ranked samurai in the service of Lord Yoshinaka Minamoto, the cousin of the first Shogun of Japan. When Yoshinaka Minamoto was only an infant, a samurai was sent from a rival family to kill him and his mother. Yoshinaka's mother escaped with him and went secretly to the home of a farmer who was loyal to their family. Yoshinaka was later brought to Kiso village in Shinano, not far from Togakure village...

Im not gonna plagerize the whole site... but that is from the "History" link at www.mbdojo.com

 

[heretic888]

Thanks for the link, Techno.

So-o was the name of a monk at a monastery on Mount Hiei-zan. As was a custom in those times he left his home to live for three years in a cave, subjecting himself to the hardship of nature in order to discover truth and enlightenment. It was after a mysterious dream that he formed the Tendai Shugendo sect of Buddhism, and established the headquarters of the Tendai monastery at Hiei-zan. These monks still exist today and some are still engaged in Shugendo, or mountain asceticism: purifying one's self by trial and hardship.

Hmmm.... that is all very interesting, but this individual seems to be more connected with the history of a particular form of Shugendo than with either Ninjutsu or Ninpo Taijutsu.

Is this So-o supposedly the same individual as the Zhang Zi Liang that Jay mentioned before??

The names I have most often come across connected to the history of Ninpo are individuals such as Yo Gyokko (Yao Yu Hu), Cho Buren, Ikai (Chan Busho), Hogenbo Tesshun, Gamon Doshi, and so forth. Does this So-o or Zhang Zi Liang have any connection to these persons??

Thanks. Laterz.

 

[Fitolandia]

First of all, most deadliest art? never , i don´t know of any martial art that can be called the deadliest. sorry for my english, but i´m argentinian, i speak castellano and it´s two in the morning : ))... Well about the 5th dan in two years? christ, i train since almost two years ago in the Bujinkan, from monday to friday, two hours per day and i´m only 6th kyu, and well my sensei doesn´t want us in an exam before we really know what we are doing, even because the Shihan that makes the exam is too free in what he wants, he says "ok, uke atacks with fudo ken, zempo geri, fudo ken, tori does what he can to get out and finish with technique" so we take a time before presenting to an exam, even because our sensei thinks that you really have to show the improvement in your taijutsu between one kyu to another... i think that the time to get a black belt varies from a place to another but a 5th dan in two years?? sounds like he doesn´t belong to any of the x-kan. uhm... I don´t know, if he enjoys he´s training then cool, let him keep it up with it, but don´t let his ego to fly away because it´s bad for him, dunno you guys, but i´ve seen too many egomaniatic martial artists get their asses really bad beatten in the streets by a non martial artist that had a good idea of a real fight. But again, i´ve also seen some humble martial artists give a good fight. My father studies Okinawan Karate since 10 years ago and i sparr with him from time to time and i find that Bujinkan works as long as you have your mind free and you don´t get stucked in the form, just keep moving they say : )). I think that your friend got stucked with some 80´s fan that created his own school or something like that.


Hope to help you even a little

Best Regards,

Gabriel

P.S.: Last thought that came to my mind... Did your friend visit Soke Hatsumi lately? uhm or did he travel to Japan or something like that? As far as i know the 5th Dan test or Sakki Test is taken by the Soke himself or his japanesse Shihan, from what i´ve heard recently Pedro Fleitas received the permission to take the 5th dan test himself to his students but till now from what i´ve heard he didn´t give any 5th dans. The other conclusion could be that he is in Genbukan or Jinenkan but since the three x-kan are from the same family tree i don´t think that it varies too much from what happens in the bujinkan. If not again, i think that your friend is with some perosn that created his own thing and likes to lie quite a lot

 

[heretic888]

Ummm.... anyone gonna answer my questions?? :shrug:

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by heretic888
Ummm.... anyone gonna answer my questions?? :shrug:

I can answer with "Um, I dunno..."