Question about the Godai

[eyebeams]

Godai is a concept from Tendai sect Buddhism.

Rokkudai is a concept from Shingon sect Buddhism.

Actually, they aren't divided precisely among sects. There are fourfold, fivefold and sixfold models used depending on the context, sometimes expressed in nested series. The fivefold model is common as it mirrors the scheme of worldly buddhas emanating from Dainichi.

Japanese martial arts were influenced by the religious influences around them the same way that martial arts in other cultures were influenced by the religions around them. The quote you are refering to was drawing on Buddhist concepts, not necessarily concepts that are organic to the Bujinkan. As far as I know, there is no "godai" concept organic to the ryu ha in the Bujinkan.

It was, I believe, in relationship to Juppo Sessho.

 

[Kreth]

It was, I believe, in relationship to Juppo Sessho.

So now we've gone from Hayes' Shoshinsha Godai no kata being part of the Bujinkan (disproven) to fishing for any references to godai in Bujinkan material? :idunno:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Oh my, this thread is going nowhere! :idunno:




:ninja:

 

[Cryozombie]

Why did I even ask about the Godai? Oh yeah, I know why......

Because you, sir, are a troublemaker. ROFLMFAO

 

[Cryozombie]

No, Eyebeams, why dont you stop embarrasing yourself...

ROFL. Pathetic, man. Just freakin pathetic.

Was I even close? 14 about right?

 

[Kizaru]

....The fivefold model is common as it mirrors the scheme of worldly buddhas emanating from Dainichi..

Okay, so you know a little something about Buddhism, I suppose my simplified explanation was unneccesary.

It was, I believe, in relationship to Juppo Sessho.

And as I am sure you already know, the concept "Juppo Sessho" is originally from Japanese Buddhism. If it's Buddhism you're interested in, again, I urge you to find someone teaching Buddhism, as that's a more direct vehicle to what you're looking for.

合掌
Gassho.

 

[Fu_Bag]

I can't believe that you guys didn't know the long since abandoned secrets of the Super Secret Ninja Godai Training Method can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaolin_Showdown


" The use of the artifacts is shown to be usually combined with the use of the martial arts, which are portrayed as evoking internal, mystical powers linked to the classical elements that work synergistically with the Shen Gong Wu. The show makes frequent use of Chinese culture and archetypes despite the international setting — the Xiaolin Temple is in China and the origins of most of the Shen Gong Wu all seem to be Chinese. However, the elements they use are not Chinese. Chinese Mythology refers to the 5 elements as earth, water, metal, wood, and fire. They use the Greek elements of fire, earth, water, and wind. "

Glad to be of service

Fu Bag

 

[Fu_Bag]

And guess what? My current teacher has claimed to be a reincarnation of Takamatsu.

Wow. How does he know? How would someone know that they were the reincarnation of Takamatsu-sensei? Really thick fingernails? At least you must be getting top-knotch training!!!

I'm just playing. I'm not trying to insult anyone here. That just seems a little unusual is all....

 

[Don Roley]

So now we've gone from Hayes' Shoshinsha Godai no kata being part of the Bujinkan (disproven) to fishing for any references to godai in Bujinkan material? :idunno:

Anyone besides me getting a case of deja vu and the names Bruce Calkins and Blooming Lotus keep popping up?

Some people can use the internet to find out new things. Others seem to only use it to find references that might relate in some way with what they want things to be. Being right seems to be more important than being correct.

 

[eyebeams]

No, Eyebeams, why dont you stop embarrasing yourself...

ROFL. Pathetic, man. Just freakin pathetic.

Was I even close? 14 about right?

Ad hominems do not an argument make.

 

[eyebeams]

So now we've gone from Hayes' Shoshinsha Godai no kata being part of the Bujinkan (disproven) to fishing for any references to godai in Bujinkan material? :idunno:

Well no, we didn't. If you review my posts, you'll see that I've repeatedly stated that I believe Hayes' godai is his own invention. So triumphantly going, "See, Hayes' godai isn't there!" is missing the point -- repeatedly. I suppose it's more comfortable to attack a stawman, but it's not honest engagement.

But it also appears that the assertion that the elements were only used for counting is also untrue.

I am indeed fishing for references to the godai (and related schema) in Bujinkan material. That's kind of the point.

 

[eyebeams]

Anyone besides me getting a case of deja vu and the names Bruce Calkins and Blooming Lotus keep popping up?

Bruce Calkins is a mediocre martial artist who got too big for his britches, but in the past I've said that he certainly illustrates the process behind martial arts mythology. Calkins' case also illustrates the advantages of current technology in being able to put that mythology in its place, and it makes me wonder what many arts would be like if they'd been founded after the rise of the internet.

This is actually a pretty big deal in traditional martial arts narratives. One example would be the reevaluation of Morihei Ueshiba in light of video from his later life being available to a mass audience. Aikido mythology held that he was still an able fighter into old age, but the video shows students complying with techniques out of obvious respect for Osensei.

This has caused Aikidoka to reframe this stage of his life by suggesting that culivating "ki" in Aikido is something with a strong social dimension. Similarly, it's become easier to get multiple perspectives on a topic.

There's an argument -- a legitimate one -- that this free flow of information and opinion is contrary to the traditional structures of budo. You, Don, certainly hold this opinion. In the past you've expressed anger when people speak to Hatsumi outside of customary channels (Shinobi Winds) and have opposed detailing specific technical matters.

The problem is that this view -- your view -- of budo does not compel others to agree. Your sense of moral superiority is misplaced outside of the context of your own organization.

Some people can use the internet to find out new things. Others seem to only use it to find references that might relate in some way with what they want things to be. Being right seems to be more important than being correct.

The only conclusion I've reached is that Buddhist elemental schemes have been referred to in the past as something more than a mere counting system (though those references are not equivalent to Hayes' method).

 

[eyebeams]

Ninja Seishin Towa,
Shin Shin Shiki O Shinobu,
Ninniku Seishin O Konpon To Suru.​

Chijoku O Shinonde Urami O Hojisaru,
Nintai Seishin O Yashinau Kotoni Hajimaru Mono De Aru.​

Nin Towa,
Kokoro No Yueni Yaiba O Oite,
Yaiba De Hito O Kizutsuketari Suruyona Mono Dewa Naku,
Kajo Waraku,
Hana No Gotoki Joai O Motte,
Heiwa O Tanoshimu Mono De Aru.​

Yueni,
Tai O Motte Shizen Ni Aite No Ken O Sake.
Sugata O Kesu,
Kyojitsu Tenkan No Myo O E,
Iccho Kuni No Tame Toka,
Gi No Tame Ni,
Chi, Sui, Ka, Fu, Ku,
No Dai Shizen O Riyoshite.
Aite O Seisuru Koto Ga,​

Ninja No Konpon Gensoku De Aru.​

​

Original by Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei (Amatsu Tatara Ryumon no Maki).​

​

TRANSLATION :​

​

"The essence of 'Ninniku Seishin' is the spirit of the Ninja who has the power to use patience together with the body, mind and subconscious. It is this power that one must develop by training hard. The result will lead to the ability to pocket any insult and later throw it away together with all traces of resentment (Nintai Seishin). The true meaning of 'Nin' is having a heart as peaceful, joyful and lovely as that of a flower (Kajo Waraku). One should never place the blade before the heart. It is also very important to acquire a good knowledge of diversionary tactics using both the heart and body, so that in emergencies one will be able to disappear. This is known as 'Kyojitsu Tenkan', and is for defeating evil with the powers of Earth, Water, Fire, Wind and Air for Justice, in the defense of oneself, or one's country."​

 

[Dale Seago]

This is actually a pretty big deal in traditional martial arts narratives. One example would be the reevaluation of Morihei Ueshiba in light of video from his later life being available to a mass audience. Aikido mythology held that he was still an able fighter into old age, but the video shows students complying with techniques out of obvious respect for Osensei.

Do you think these are, necessarily, mutually exclusive?

 

[eyebeams]

Do you think these are, necessarily, mutually exclusive?

That kind of ability does not necessarily translate into every context folded under martial arts or self-protection, but they can cross over to a degree.

 

[Don Roley]

But it also appears that the assertion that the elements were only used for counting is also untrue.

No, not if you are talking about the Bujinkan and the traditions that make it up.

As has been stated, the godai was found in Buddhism from a long time past. Its use lost the aspects of religion and bacame merely a means of counting. Just like the days to honor the Norse gods became just a way of telling what day it was in Christian Europe.

So even though there is some use of the Godai outside the traditions of the Bujinkan does not mean that there is any relation to the way of counting in the Bujinkan despite how much that there is newashi (snicker, snort... do you even know what you are saying) going on that you try to hint at.

 

[Don Roley]

There's an argument -- a legitimate one -- that this free flow of information and opinion is contrary to the traditional structures of budo. You, Don, certainly hold this opinion. In the past you've expressed anger when people speak to Hatsumi outside of customary channels (Shinobi Winds) and have opposed detailing specific technical matters.

No, you are not correct about the above at all.

Go ahead and take a look at what I actually wrote about the Shinobi winds documentary. I made no mention of "customary channels" and my problems with the documentary were in the lack of accuracy as well as the way the guy acted towards Hatsumi.

If you want to say that there is some sort of conspiracy to conceal the truth and that you are in fact correct, you failed. Big time. There is nothing stopping me from stating my opinion and giving facts. You can ask several people in both the Bujinkan and the staff of martialtalk- nothing stops me from saying what I think or know.

 

[eyebeams]

No, not if you are talking about the Bujinkan and the traditions that make it up.

So Takamatsu was exhorting students to count to five and Ben Cole was talking about Hatsumi lecturing about how you might also count to six, eh?

 

[eyebeams]

No, you are not correct about the above at all.

Go ahead and take a look at what I actually wrote about the Shinobi winds documentary. I made no mention of "customary channels" and my problems with the documentary were in the lack of accuracy as well as the way the guy acted towards Hatsumi.

Amazingly, Don, it is normal to go up to a guy with a camera and ask questions when you're filming a documentary, no matter how important you believe the guy to be.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Amazingly, Don, it is normal to go up to a guy with a camera and ask questions when you're filming a documentary, no matter how important you believe the guy to be.

Yes, that is true, but unless you wish it to be an adversarial and counterproductive relationship, you go through proper channels and exercies appropriate courtesy and respect.