Question about the Godai

[eyebeams]

To be more precise, you trained with Court Elliott, who was mainly associated with Hayes. You heard the stories as Hayes put it out and from his people.

I don't recall Court Elliot mentioning Stephen Hayes aside from the time Hayes came to Toronto to do a lecture (when he said, "Stephen Hayes is in Toronto, holding a lecture at U of T at such and such a time"). I found out who taught him by asking a random student.

You can dress up what you say in a lot of different ways, but you have not been to Japan, not seen the sources I have and yet you are trying to say that you know what is part of the Bujinkan better than people who have for more experience in it than you.

And you can dress up the fact that you're a part of an innately authoritarian organization run by a guy who believes in psychic powers, the spirits of the dead floating by his ear and tapeworm cures via shugendo magic as well - hell, I've taken pains to be respectful of the cultural worldview surrounding the Bujinkan, but you are apparently confusing this discussion for a fight, so I suppose I will have to be indelicate. There are reasons that all of what I said exists and I have a measure of respect for that. But that doesn't change the fact that this affects the kind of information that source and its representatives are going to provide -- even if it makes sense in a certain cultural context.

If you think that you are right, then write to Hatsumi (in Japanese) for clarification. He will tell you straight out. You might also try asking people that were there when you were not, or translating some of the older books in Japanese for explinations of the Godai as Hayes explains them- i.e. they don't exist.

This is a straw man. I have no doubt that Hayes expanded the godai as the basis for his own martial pedagogy. I am not suggesting that Hayes only adopted a preexisting system whole cloth. But people in this very thread have said that some things have an "elemental" quality and I have read similar statements elsewhere. And of course, I'd love to read that Sanmyaku article.

Meanwhile, for all I care, the Bujinkan, Quest Centers and their respective members and associates can continue mugging each other via backhanded nemawashi or crass commercialism as much as they like.

 

[Don Roley]

I don't recall Court Elliot mentioning Stephen Hayes aside from the time Hayes came to Toronto to do a lecture (when he said, "Stephen Hayes is in Toronto, holding a lecture at U of T at such and such a time"). I found out who taught him by asking a random student.

Doesn't matter what you heard or did not hear. I trained with Court at the '96 Daikomyosai and was there when he passed his godan test. I am quite certain I can say that if you learned stuff from him prior to that, what you learned came from Hayes more than it did from Hatsumi.

And you can dress up the fact that you're a part of an innately authoritarian organization run by a guy who believes in psychic powers, the spirits of the dead floating by his ear and tapeworm cures via shugendo magic as well - hell, I've taken pains to be respectful of the cultural worldview surrounding the Bujinkan, but you are apparently confusing this discussion for a fight, so I suppose I will have to be indelicate. There are reasons that all of what I said exists and I have a measure of respect for that. But that doesn't change the fact that this affects the kind of information that source and its representatives are going to provide -- even if it makes sense in a certain cultural context.

You are wrong about so much of what you say about Hatsumi, the orginization and the culture. I dare say that I know a bit more about the culture than you do and it does not explain away the lack of facts for your argument.

This is a straw man. I have no doubt that Hayes expanded the godai as the basis for his own martial pedagogy. I am not suggesting that Hayes only adopted a preexisting system whole cloth. But people in this very thread have said that some things have an "elemental" quality and I have read similar statements elsewhere. And of course, I'd love to read that Sanmyaku article.

When we talk about the Godai, we are either talking about a system of counting in Japan or the system Hayes set up. When you talk about other things, you are not talking about the godai. There are kata where you are supposed to try to emulate the feeling of water or air (not earth, etc AFAIK) but that is not what Hayes says to do. You have not even read the sanmyaku article. You do not know what you are talking about and seeing that there are references to Earth levels of the judan and thinking that it has something to do with this conversation. But it does not and you just do not know enough to understand that is does not.

Meanwhile, for all I care, the Bujinkan, Quest Centers and their respective members and associates can continue mugging each other via backhanded nemawashi or crass commercialism as much as they like.

You seem to be quite good at it yourself. You might want to tone things down a bit.

 

[eyebeams]

Doesn't matter what you heard or did not hear. I trained with Court at the '96 Daikomyosai and was there when he passed his godan test. I am quite certain I can say that if you learned stuff from him prior to that, what you learned came from Hayes more than it did from Hatsumi.

Thank God I managed to recognize ganseki nage that last time I saw a local Bujinkan guy do it, since the Hayes version of that period must be totally wierd and awful, despite looking pretty much the same. Or not.

I must admit I've never been able to understand this Bujinkan eccentricity, where even members of the organization itself can't be trusted for accurate information unless they're Japanese. I can walk downtown and get reliable answers about Daito-Ryu and Iaido from a qualified practitioner, right down to controversies and frank discussions of the difference between history and traditional narrative. But for some strange reason, the far more common arts of the Bujinkan will apparently lead me astray unless I haul *** to Japan. I therefore feel bad for students in places other than Japan.

You are wrong about so much of what you say about Hatsumi, the orginization and the culture. I dare say that I know a bit more about the culture than you do and it does not explain away the lack of facts for your argument.

Feel free to rebut in detail about how the Bujinkan is a democracy, there's no story about Takamatsu being cured of tapeworms by an ascetic, Hatsumi does not talk about transmitting sakki remotely, and so on. You know and I know that I am not pulling this stuff out of thin air, and I'd be happy to hear more about the context in which you view stories and situations like this.

When we talk about the Godai, we are either talking about a system of counting in Japan or the system Hayes set up. When you talk about other things, you are not talking about the godai. There are kata where you are supposed to try to emulate the feeling of water or air (not earth, etc AFAIK) but that is not what Hayes says to do.

I'd have to go back to my memory of specific techniques and compare.

You have not even read the sanmyaku article.

Okay. Let's hear about the article then. I'd be happy to hear responses that are longer on facts than denials.

You do not know what you are talking about and seeing that there are references to Earth levels of the judan and thinking that it has something to do with this conversation. But it does not and you just do not know enough to understand that is does not.

What? I never brought this up. You seem to be having another episode where you assume I'm that Gary Arthur guy.

You seem to be quite good at it yourself. You might want to tone things down a bit.

I am neither selling anything nor attempting to create a consensus before getting formal approval from my senior, so no, not really.

 

[Don Roley]

Thank God I managed to recognize ganseki nage that last time I saw a local Bujinkan guy do it, since the Hayes version of that period must be totally wierd and awful, despite looking pretty much the same. Or not.

Just because a ganseki nage is the same does not mean that EVERYTHING that comes from Hayes is the same as it is in Japan and I think you know that.

I must admit I've never been able to understand this Bujinkan eccentricity, where even members of the organization itself can't be trusted for accurate information unless they're Japanese.

False accusation. I never mentioned Japanese even though all the guys that were there the longest are Japanese. If you ask someone like Doron Navron or Quinton Chambers about the godai you will get the same answer I am giving you. What Hayes taught is not the same as it was taught in the past. Trying to make this a racial issue is not cool.


I can walk downtown and get reliable answers about Daito-Ryu and Iaido from a qualified practitioner, right down to controversies and frank discussions of the difference between history and traditional narrative. But for some strange reason, the far more common arts of the Bujinkan will apparently lead me astray unless I haul *** to Japan. I therefore feel bad for students in places other than Japan.

Feel free to rebut in detail about how the Bujinkan is a democracy, there's no story about Takamatsu being cured of tapeworms by an ascetic, Hatsumi does not talk about transmitting sakki remotely, and so on. You know and I know that I am not pulling this stuff out of thin air, and I'd be happy to hear more about the context in which you view stories and situations like this.

We are not a democracy, but we are not required to do certain things and always back the party line. You merely need to read the posts here to see that. You portrayal of us like we were a cult just because we will not accept your version of events is not going to go over well.

I honestly feel like I am dealing with one of those conspiracy theorists. When people who are in a better position to know give a statement that runs counter to what you want to believe, you say that it is because they are part of the conspiracy.

 

[eyebeams]

Just because a ganseki nage is the same does not mean that EVERYTHING that comes from Hayes is the same as it is in Japan and I think you know that.

Sure. Hayes invented kata. He and his students have made it clear on several occasions that the godai was never strictly hardwired to a given technique in such and such a fashion, or applied exclusively.

To repeat: I am not asserting that the all-encompassing, Hayes style godai existed before Hayes developed it.

False accusation. I never mentioned Japanese even though all the guys that were there the longest are Japanese. If you ask someone like Doron Navron or Quinton Chambers about the godai you will get the same answer I am giving you. What Hayes taught is not the same as it was taught in the past. Trying to make this a racial issue is not cool.

I would hope for a more nuanced answer, actually. And though it's been like pulling teeth, you have provided one when you talked about earth not being a distinct feeling in the Bujinkan. This is actually quite useful to me on a number of levels. I wonder about how this sort of thing is treated in the Gnebukan, given their dojo kun. There's an opportunity to meet Shoto Tanemura coming up that I may take advantage of if I can get the cash together.

And nationality and location isn't race. I have heard things that I consider overly Asiaphiliac from a few people, but not from you or in this thread.

We are not a democracy, but we are not required to do certain things and always back the party line. You merely need to read the posts here to see that. You portrayal of us like we were a cult just because we will not accept your version of events is not going to go over well.

Don, you chose to be offended. When I originally brought this stuff up, I said it was acceptable in a certain context. What part of that did you misunderstand? I find nothing wrong with this kind of folklore and spiritual traditions. They are not the same as historical truth, but historical truth is not necessarily "better."

A for a "party line:" There are people you are not allowed to train with and policies you must follow, and a culture of consensus in keeping with organizational tradition. Of *course* it's a party line. Again, there's nothing wrong with it, and I never said there was.But it isn't conducive to certain lines of questioning, either.

I honestly feel like I am dealing with one of those conspiracy theorists. When people who are in a better position to know give a statement that runs counter to what you want to believe, you say that it is because they are part of the conspiracy.

Don, in this thread you've implied I'm a sockpuppet for a banned Toshindo guy and accused me of a number of things, up to and including something to do with the judan levels that I never even wrote and found bizarre to read. You are onviously following a train of thought that is becoming more and more divorced from what I am actually saying.

As for anyone else, I would appreciate any account of that Sanmyaku article.

 

[Kizaru]

...tapeworm cures via shugendo magic as well....

What's wrong with Shugendo?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Malcolm,

You have to understand that when Stephen Hayes published his books he was just starting along on the path of Budo Taijutsu under Hatsumi. (he was just a beginner) He made many mistakes that anyone would have made given his understanding of the language and art. I know for a fact that I have been at a Doron Navon seminar a long, long, long time ago where he mentioned very casually that Hayes's Godai was not correct and that he had elaborated on it. Don Roley has given you good information. The Godai is a counting system in Budo Taijutsu and not at all like what Hayes used early on and uses now in To Shin Do. Those are the facts and you can verify them with pretty much any Bujinkan Shidoshi, Shihan throughout the world by simply emailing them. (though some who were with Hayes might still hold onto a little of the old days) If you are still interested in Budo Taijutsu I would urge you to join a Bujinkan Dojo and go to Japan and see Hatsumi. It certainly is an eye opener! Good luck in your training.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

As for spirits floating around etc. - Hatsumi sensei once "allowed" some American guy to become the next Soke.

 

[Cryozombie]

I wonder about how this sort of thing is treated in the Gnebukan, given their dojo kun. There's an opportunity to meet Shoto Tanemura coming up that I may take advantage of if I can get the cash together.

I was gonna stay out of this alltogether, because I don't give a damn. However, I just wanna point one thing out.

Eyebeams, you keep coming back to "The Genbukan says" or "The genbukan does" or "I wonder what the genbukan would say about that"

My only comment is "As far as what the Genbukan does in regards to a discussion on Bujinkan training, it is irrelevant, since the Bujinkan is NOT the Genbukan."

 

[Tengu6]

Sure. Hayes invented kata. He and his students have made it clear on several occasions that the godai was never strictly hardwired to a given technique in such and such a fashion, or applied exclusively.

Sorry, your info is not exactly correct. In Hayes System, Specific Kamae and techniques ARE ties to a specific element in the begining.......and by begining I mean as you first pass through the elements, and this takes at least FOUR YEARS. Then, when you are in "Void" mode, you mix elements.

So like I said, you will not work with certain kamae for years in some cases.

Markk Bush
www.bujinmag.com

 

[Don Roley]

A for a "party line:" There are people you are not allowed to train with and policies you must follow, and a culture of consensus in keeping with organizational tradition. Of *course* it's a party line. Again, there's nothing wrong with it, and I never said there was.But it isn't conducive to certain lines of questioning, either.

No, you seem to be trying to confuse the issue by accusing Bujinkan members of having to subscribe to a certain viewpoint. We will not say what you want us to, so you say that we are under pressure to change our story.

Well, we do have rules on our behavior. We can't be addicted to drugs and a few rules like that. We are quite free to state our opinion and if you read here, you will find that we do.

Now if you do some research, you will find that the system of godai in Japan is just a way of counting. If you ever get that Sammyaku article you will find that it is talking about the earth level, water level, etc of the judan. It is not anything to do with Hayes and how he laid it out. Tengu6 is correct in his description when he said,

In Hayes System, Specific Kamae and techniques ARE ties to a specific element in the begining.......and by begining I mean as you first pass through the elements, and this takes at least FOUR YEARS. Then, when you are in "Void" mode, you mix elements.

I have run across people who have made it to Japan that still thought this was the case with the Bujinkan. It is not.

BTW- why do you bring up Gary Arthur? I thought your name was Gary because there is another current member here who is named Gary. I never mentioned a last name.

 

[eyebeams]

Sorry, your info is not exactly correct. In Hayes System, Specific Kamae and techniques ARE ties to a specific element in the begining.......and by begining I mean as you first pass through the elements, and this takes at least FOUR YEARS. Then, when you are in "Void" mode, you mix elements.

So like I said, you will not work with certain kamae for years in some cases.

Markk Bush
www.bujinmag.com

Which Hayes system? I can think of three offhand, going from Bujinkan with Hayes ideas as part of the base to his own Kasmui-An and then Toshindo.

 

[eyebeams]

What's wrong with Shugendo?

Nothing. I don't know it's record for removing tapeworms via occult means, though.

 

[eyebeams]

I was gonna stay out of this alltogether, because I don't give a damn. However, I just wanna point one thing out.

Eyebeams, you keep coming back to "The Genbukan says" or "The genbukan does" or "I wonder what the genbukan would say about that"

My only comment is "As far as what the Genbukan does in regards to a discussion on Bujinkan training, it is irrelevant, since the Bujinkan is NOT the Genbukan."

It's entirely relevant. The martial poem used in Genbukan sessions mentions the study of the five elements of nature and other references have popped up. These are most definitely not reminders to count to five. If The Genbukan and Bujinkan have their origins in Takamatsu's arts, where the hell did it come from?

 

[Don Roley]

The martial poem used in Genbukan sessions mentions the study of the five elements of nature and other references have popped up.

A poem...... with something you want to think has relevance to the discussion.......

Does the term "grasping at straws" ring a bell with you?

If you had come onto this thread with an open mind instead of throwing insults you might have learned something. Instead, you started off by saying that merely talking about things like this endangers our status in the Bujinkan.

If you had done some research you might have found that we are telling you what we are because it is the truth and not because we are reverse racists in an orginization that does not brook dissent with official stories. There are no official stories about the godai. Just the truth.

If you had just admitted that you were wrong and had not done the research you would have gotten a better reception. Instead you first tried to say there was something in an issue of Sanmyaku that backed what you wanted to be true without even reading it. And Sanmyaku is the official newsletter of Hatsumi. So it is really strange that you say that Hatsumi is trying to rewrite history after trying to make your case by means of referencing his newsletter- which you had not read.

If you want advice to help overcome your lack of knowledge in the subject matter, I am still willing to help you by reccomending some works. You can start with Japan- A Short Cultural History by Varley. But if you merely do not wish to admit that you are wrong and the others here who have far more knowledge and experience in the Bujinkan are telling the truth then I don't see how this discussion can reach a pleasent end.

 

[Cryozombie]

It's entirely relevant. The martial poem used in Genbukan sessions mentions the study of the five elements of nature and other references have popped up. These are most definitely not reminders to count to five. If The Genbukan and Bujinkan have their origins in Takamatsu's arts, where the hell did it come from?

Hmm. Lessee... maybe... Another source they were added from?

Dood, that argument is like saying Waffles and Pancakes both come from the same box of pancake mix on the shelf, so both must have Oil in them.

Heaven forbid one gets oil added to it when its no longer pancakes.

 

[Don Roley]

Dood, that argument is like saying Waffles and Pancakes both come from the same box of pancake mix on the shelf, so both must have Oil in them.

More like we all worship the Norse Gods because we use the days of the week.

Hey, the days of the week we use in English originally came from the days held sacred by the Norse gods. Thursday was Thor's day, Wodin's day came before that, Freya, Tyr....you can look it up yourself.

By the time what we know as the English language reached a recognizable state, the origins of these terms had been mainly lost and the Christian church even at it's most zealous does not seem to have tried to stamp out the use of the term "Thursday" for another without reference to the Norse religion. Because as far as everyone was concerned, there was no signifigence to them other than being the days of the week.

It is much the same way with the Godai. In ancient buddhism there is some signifigence to them. But for the Bujinkan and the sanshin, etc, they are just counting systems. Nothing more.

I have not seen no heard the poem eyebeams refers to and can't be sure it even is what he says it is. But maybe Tanemura with his research into ancient religions that he does pulled out something on them from a long time ago. But that would be like me doing some research into the Norse gods for a book and my English students thinking that I was trying to sneak in some old-time religion by making them learn the word "Thursday."

This is a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. If only people would bother to try to learn the whole picture before they tried making their case on the internet.

 

[eyebeams]

Hmm. Lessee... maybe... Another source they were added from?

Dood, that argument is like saying Waffles and Pancakes both come from the same box of pancake mix on the shelf, so both must have Oil in them.

Heaven forbid one gets oil added to it when its no longer pancakes.

Which source would that be? They're supposed to have nothing to do with Ninpo, remember?

 

[eyebeams]

More like we all worship the Norse Gods because we use the days of the week.

Hey, the days of the week we use in English originally came from the days held sacred by the Norse gods. Thursday was Thor's day, Wodin's day came before that, Freya, Tyr....you can look it up yourself.

That makes perfect sense, when it's the remnant of customs that were suppressed for fairly naked political reasons.

I find it interesting that former Bujinkan mmembers have recently taken the time to contact me with recollections about the godai.

This is a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. If only people would bother to try to learn the whole picture before they tried making their case on the internet.

I think it's certainly a case where an attempt by one group to assert control over its history does not guarantee accuracy.

 

[eyebeams]

If you had come onto this thread with an open mind instead of throwing insults you might have learned something. Instead, you started off by saying that merely talking about things like this endangers our status in the Bujinkan.

The Bujinkan has its reasons for doing its thing. I have repeatedly said that this is the Bujinkan's business, but it isn't necessarily satisfying for individuals.

It is clear that you are uncomfortable with some things about Hatsumi and the Bujinkan, because you interpreted simple descriptions of them as belittling insults. Your discomfort with yamabushi magic and the spirits of dead samurai being a part of recent Bujinkan stories is really not my problem, and you appear to have more of a problem with it than I do.

If you had done some research you might have found that we are telling you what we are because it is the truth and not because we are reverse racists in an orginization that does not brook dissent with official stories. There are no official stories about the godai. Just the truth.

Don, it is obvious that you feel it is your duty to manage the Bujinkan's image. You've made it clear in past confrontations with others. You've made it clear when you expressed anger that the makers of Shinobi Winds did not limit themselves to carefully managed interactions between Hatsumi and interviewers. This is also normal and even commendable. It is just not compatible with everyone's aims and objectives.

If you had just admitted that you were wrong and had not done the research you would have gotten a better reception. Instead you first tried to say there was something in an issue of Sanmyaku that backed what you wanted to be true without even reading it. And Sanmyaku is the official newsletter of Hatsumi. So it is really strange that you say that Hatsumi is trying to rewrite history after trying to make your case by means of referencing his newsletter- which you had not read.

I merely asked a question about the issue. It does not compose the entirely of this discussion. Unfortunately, at this point I am disinclined to take your word for it.

If you want advice to help overcome your lack of knowledge in the subject matter, I am still willing to help you by reccomending some works. You can start with Japan- A Short Cultural History by Varley. But if you merely do not wish to admit that you are wrong and the others here who have far more knowledge and experience in the Bujinkan are telling the truth then I don't see how this discussion can reach a pleasent end.

This discussion is already pretty unpleasant, but no less illuminating.