Doc
Senior Master
I have no idea. Never heard of it.Flying Crane said:
Question about Staff Set
- Thread starter RichK
- Start date
Doc
Senior Master
The difference being the Chinese used weapons training in those days to promote proper body mechanics. Many of the forms with weapons could not be done with poor mechanics. Mr. Parker also gave up attempting to teach body mechanics to the masses because it is too labor intensive as an instructor, and he stopped teaching in the school in the early sixties.Flying Crane said:
Instead he chose to move to a motion based concept that required only effective "movement" as defined by the student for the masses of his students and instructors. Forms became vehicles for 'movement' instead of proper mechanics, with the emphasis being placed on self defense techniques. As long as the student was satisfied with the techniques, it didn't matter. It was, and is, a consumer driven martial vehicle. Even though all do not teach it that way, it is still limited to the constraints of the concept.
IWishToLearn
3rd Black Belt
Which if any of the forms have made the transition to SL4 curriculum?
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
IWishToLearn said:
Last I heard, and Doc can/will correct me as I'm wrong, SF1-3 and long 1-3. Sets are there, but different: Stance set, index set, etc...some have the same names, but look very different. Short 1 has so much bamming, indexing & pamming in it, it's barely recognizable in comparison to the AK version. Same with the other forms. And the applications are pretty danged cewl. But, since the content of any form is moot if the body mechanics aren't correct, very little time is spent on them. More time is spent on AOD drills, techs, and index sets to get the body moving within optimum anatomical/functional parameters.
Happy hunting,
Moi.
Doc
Senior Master
All of the original forms.IWishToLearn said:
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Doc said:
Cleverly evasive. So...which be those? :supcool:
Doc
Senior Master
Come to class. If Kevin Mills and crew can come from Englandm, and Vivion Spain from Ireland well ......Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
OK I'l stop busting your chops, (for now)
All of the forms up through what most call Short Three are viable forms. Everything after that was created to support the commercial system. Although there are elements with those forms that may be utilized succesfully, as a whole they are anatomically dysfunctional and serve only to flesh out the motion based product.
IWishToLearn
3rd Black Belt
Playing devil's advocate for a sec - I've heard SGM Parker quoted as saying if someone knew form 4 they then also knew American Kenpo. Thoughts?
Doc
Senior Master
Crap!. Mr. Parker never made all encompassing statements without qualifications.IWishToLearn said:
IWishToLearn
3rd Black Belt
Found an origin of the second Tracys set - Al Tracy had a Chinese stylist come teach him further weapons forms so he could include them in his curriculum. It's buried on his origins of the Tracy's forms page.
Doc
Senior Master
A genius in his own right, Al simply paid the top people he could find to teach whatever he thought his system needed. Willie Lim and Joe Lewis comes to mind.
IWishToLearn
3rd Black Belt
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
I'm interested in seeing how this question pans out. I have an old 8mm xfered to tape here that shows short 2 as a contiguous part of short 1.
I suspect that there were, originally, only the first three short forms, and I am not so sure they weren't developed after SGM Parker started teaching. According to the legends, the folks that taught or were involved in Kenpo prior to SGM Parker didn't care too terribly much about kata, or only worked one or two, like Naihanchi (Okinawan?)...
But I have been wrong before.
Doc
Senior Master
What occurred was the idea to take existing forms and divide them into "long and short" versions. When Parker fisrt came to the mainland, there were no forms taught at all. Dan Farmer is correct. Short One and Short Two were originally a single form. They simply cut the form in half into two "short" forms. The first half became "Short One," and the second half, "Short Two." The other form that existed is what is now called Long One, and "Long Two" was created to extend the short version. The "advanced forms" were the "Two Man Set," and "Tiger and the Crane." The only weapon from was a modified exercise from Ark Wong, and called "Staff Set," not "Staff Set One," because there were no plans to extend it. Parker didn't believe in "traditional weapons" beyond the obvious physical benefit of body mechanics training. "Traditional weapons" were either cultural artisitc training, or had an actual function on the battlefield. As Flying Crane essentially stated, these are specialized skills that have to learned over and above good body mechanics.
But Parker was intent on creating "self-defense" systems for the American Public, and dismissed the "ninja mindset" as outdated. Parker rationalized the Staff Set, because a person might have access to a broom handle, something common in our society. Outside of domestic violence, people are rarely attacked with blades or sticks. If I'm pissed at you and looking to get you, I'll arm myself with something that makes a lot more noise when you use it. Most laypersons who carry knifes, do so for defensive purposes, and if you don't bother them they are not likely to pull a knife on you.
Keep in mind, all of the above is predicated on particular over-lapping time frames, and all of it was in a state of flux as Parker evolved, diverted, and changed things continuosly on his multiple arts.
