Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by BillK, Feb 6, 2016.
Not my cup of tea.
You're just a nice and respectful person in this forum and I can tell you try to be diplomatic lol. And yes we are pretty much in agreement about the quality. Like always you were more gentle with your feedback. I probably wouldn't have been as direct if I hadn't watched the entire video as well as additional videos that the school had, but it really did go from bad to worse. The weapons dropping seems to be common. I'm assuming that they are the light extreme martial arts weapons as I would think that someone would be afraid of letting a real weapon fly from their hands and hurting someone else.
By the way I'm not Hapkido bashing. This is just an observation on the school in question. I've seen better Hapkido that looked more consistent with how a person may try to approach a fight. There's an intensity of focus that fighters and those who train real self defense have, that doesn't show in these videos. I just think that there are always 2 groups of martial arts. One groups that use it for entertainment and the other group that use it to actually learn how to fight and defend themselves.
I've been in martial arts long enough that I can generally recognize whether someone is good at what they're doing, even if it's not what I do. I've seen plenty of Hapkido practitioners who are clearly excellent martial artists. Unfortunately, I didn't really see any of that in this video.
I think that these kind of traditional Hapkido knife defenses are fundamentally ineffective, because they don't reflect how attackers actually use knives. They won't try to stab by standing barely within arm distance and making some huge slow dramatic downward stab towards your head. If they did, yes, that technique where you catch it at the top of the arc might work. But in real life, a criminal will come in very close and shallowly stab you a bunch of times.
I wonder if some of those traditional techniques are in the context of wearing armor.
That's a good point. I'd never thought of that. Also, weapons have changed over the years, so I wonder if how people use them may also have changed.
that knife defense is a general problem in traditional styles.
the only method that gives one a small chance to get out of a knife attack, which mostly is repetitive straight stabbing from a close distance, comes from the modern system krav maga. forearm-block with simultanously devastating strike just to interrupt the repetitive stabbing of a maniac. then one could theoretically have the chance for a wristlock alá hapkido, karate and the like. theoretically.
but even blocks of straight punches are unrealistic. if all that would work, they'd do it in boxing and mma the same way.
but one can't judge particular schools for this criteria.
One of our students is Chinese and he's always reminding us that some of the techniques and recommendations are in the context of using weapons and armor. I know with some of the knife defenses I can understand doing if I wore the leather wrist brace that is often seen in Hung Gar. If I was walking around in a world of knives and swords, that would definitely be part of my normal wear.
There are more systems then Krav, and many of them are blade based systems.
If the technique is done in the context of wearing armor, say a light chain mail, then the repetitive stabbing of a maniac isn't going to get the job done especially if the knife isn't design for attacking someone with chain mail, hence the reason why some daggers are shaped the way they are long, thin, and pointy.
but whom of us or the hapkido students is wearing this?
No body, but that doesn't mean that the technique is useless. It may be that the technique needs to be put into the context of not wearing armor and tweaked from there. But that's only depending if the technique was originally created for someone wearing armor. Most people who have a knife are like most people who fight. There's not going to be a lot of advance attacking techniques being deployed. I'm pretty sure you can take the basic slash and stab motions that a knife defense deals with and find similarities with knife defenses that work fairly well. Sort of like how we all may punch differently but we can tell when the punching mechanics are off, or how the defense of that punch is not realistic based on what we know to work. Some of the knife defense that I see in Krav Maga is the same knife defense that I see in other martial art systems.
I live in the same Town as this School. Fort Wayne is both blessed and Cursed. We have a plethora of martial arts available. Especially Traditional art. . This place is hopping and bopping, and sadly if you want that kind of art, it is the only place around. At least they spar. I to was not impressed with the video the students did not look like they were ready for their belts. From what I understand those Extravaganza's are more shows put on for the audience then anything else. I have asked about this teacher before, A SUPER long time ago and got told that they didn't know much about him but his teacher was legit.
I took the intro class and what I did was just basic punching and then some real basic self defense.
I am glad I am not the only one that was less then enthused about the way they looked in that video. Now there are TONS of Karate here in the Fort. However, NONE of them Do bunkai of the forms. I watched their class's and I asked their instructors.. The only place I have not checked out is the Robert Bowles Shuri Ryu place. I know nothing about that style other then the founder is thought to have just made up his own karate style. At least by some karate people I have read on other forums.
The C.S.Kim Karate place is a Korean Karate variant. They have TONS of forms but yet again, don't do anything even approximating bunkai till blackbelt. Then all it is, is adding a partner to the solo form and only doing the obvious stuff. Its their Pyung Ahn One Step Sparring. The following videos show a tiny bit of it. As you can see, that is the extent of that orgs depth of forms exploration. Not a lot of stuff there you would see from Ian Abernathy or any of the other esteemed bunkai advocates.
So when it comes to Traditional Martial arts in the fort wayne area, not much to go with. As I have been searching for years for a good traditional place. There is a 2nd Dan WTF/KKW Tkd instructor at SudnImpact Gym. He was on the National team and teaches there. They also have a separate coach for kickboxing and regular boxing as well as separate coach for No Gi Grappling. Them and the 5th Dan at Cunninghams Taekwondo seam to be the only decent TMA in the fort.
Yes sir, I agree and apologize. I should know better than to try to post a wry comment when at work and very busy. I missed putting in the emoticon, and just generally didn't pull it off. I very much respect your knowledge and how you state your views. And I agree with your assessment of the video.
WaterGal - What I said to Tony Dismukes is true for you as well. My apologies for trying to post when I couldn't give sufficient attention to it.
As to knife defense, I think the attack you describe would be from a person with few knife skills. Not that that type of attack couldn't hurt you, but that sounds more like a one trick pony. That said, knife defense is a dangerous matter and not to be taken on without much practice.
Again, my apologies to you both for not expressing myself better.
No apology necessary. I was just making clear to anyone else who might not know me that I have no animus towards Hapkido in general. I just wouldn't want to recommend that particular school to anyone who was interested in the art.
no skill needed to kill with a knife. also hapkido isn't that old that it must have created or adapted techniques from a time people wore armors.
here i found a video which totally agrees with my opinion.
and in krav videos you see it realistically since the students are just overrung from the partner who plays the attacker. no one could grab the knife holding hand before the knife hits or could hold the grip when the attacker pulls back that hand and stabs the next time. traditionalists should admit it.
Thanks for all the input! It seems the general consensus is like my own; not impressed at all! I've studied-to use the Korean name-Jool Bong for a while and see no reason why a black belt should drop them, unless it's a new technique that is being learned. All in all, it all just seemed like no one really knew what they were doing. It was sloppy, many techniques were poorly done (or at least it looked like it to me, I don't know much about HKD), and very McDojo-ish. I have decided to stay away from them. I have been in discussion with a Kung Fu school in Indianapolis (about 2 hours from me) to train privately in Seven Star Preying Mantis. Which Kung Fu is what I want, I was just trying to avoid the drive so was looking at this dojang. I'll post a video of the Sifu in Indy in Chinese arts section. Thanks again to everyone!
Look up FMA's (Kali), systema, and silat all focus on this and have kinfe defense that is as effective as krav maga (would argue how effective any of it is in general, however). Additionally I believe Kajukenbo is supposed to have realistic knife defense, and in theory any good rbsd program should have effective knife defense.
I like the sound of this as it's not realistic to expect one instructor to be well versed in multiple systems that differ so much. It's just better to bring in expertise in that area than trying to have one person teach it all.
if you are train in a traditional martial art that users hands then you'll need to do gripping exercises. the sole purpose of these exercises is to build the hand speed accuracy and the gripping power of the hand. .If you don't build up grip strength then you aren't going to be able to hold on. second not every knife fighting situation is an all out stabbing frenzy. You can go to live leak and actually see real video footage of people getting stabbed and defending against knife attacks. I've seen videos of people stabbed in the heart and it wasn't a frenzy of stabbing. I've seen people fight with knives exactly the way that your videos say doesn't happen.
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