Qin Na, Throwing and San shou demonstration

Discussion in 'Chinese Martial Arts - General' started by dre2308, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. dre2308

    dre2308 Yellow Belt

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    柔拳(Rou Chyuan): Chinese muti-style martial art.
     
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  2. WC_lun

    WC_lun Senior Master

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    This is not typical san shou and also not very realistic when it comes to self defense. When you take multiple steps to your attacker's single step, you are already behind on time frame and every step after the first has a greater and greater chance to fail. San Shou and effective Chin Na is more direct and to the point.
     
  3. dre2308

    dre2308 Yellow Belt

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    true. it is not a typical sanshou people seen out there that lots of our Sanshou contain multiple attacks (usually no less than 3 blows), which is a distinct feature of our style

    While one punch can be effective, when they are delivered in volleys of two, three, four, five or six or more they become devastating. Anyone can dodge or slip one punch, but it is a lot more difficult to get out of the way of multiple incoming, well thrown punches in sequence.

    that is if you take multiple steps after opponent's one step, you will have a better chance to hit your opponent.

    and if each follow-up attack is different and consecutive, it is even harder to block.

    however, I agree with your claim about the timing and to the point for Sanshou.

    Therefore, whether it is good or bad really depends on the nature of the Sanshou itself and how one executes it.

    this is my opinion. you don't have to agree with me, just for your reference.
     
  4. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

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    If some dude charges in from out of kicking range windmilling his arms about , why even bother stepping back , why even bother dealing with his arms at all.
    Just heel kick him straight in the bladder , the range of your leg is longer than his arms.
    Then step down from your kick , do a few hand strikes and then do your throws , diminish the fighters ability to resist with striking before attempting to throw.

    They seem to be going straight from kicking range into throwing range with nothing inbetween as a transition , against someone who knows what they are doing , that will get you your lights punched out quick smart.
     
  5. mograph

    mograph Black Belt

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    I find it difficult to grasp demos out of context. Are they showing "how to defend" or "how to throw"? If the former, then yes, the technique seems to be deficient. If the latter, then I can understand why they might want to leave out the transition to isolate the showing of the throw. But if that were true, the punching charge should also be left out, and maybe the demo should start with a close-range altercation. I don't know much about fighting, but I think I know a little bit about teaching a concept.
     
  6. Zoran

    Zoran Black Belt

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    Any decent video someone can point me to? Always been interesting about the art.
     
  7. WC_lun

    WC_lun Senior Master

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    Zoran, do a search on Cung Le's san shou matches. He was the best in the world at it and his san shou was text book perfect. Keep in mind when watching his matches that his opponents are resisiting and not just standing there, letting the time frame stretch on into eternity. That will change the perspective of what he is doing a bit.
     
  8. Zoran

    Zoran Black Belt

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    Thanks I'll check it out.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
     
  9. dre2308

    dre2308 Yellow Belt

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    there seems to be some misunderstandings here. first, i wanna clarify on the definition of Sanshou. Sanshou散手 in Chinese means combo attack, but it seems like people nowadays have used it interchangeably with the word Sanda散打, a Chinese combat sport.

    the first three strikes in the first demo is just the routine in the throwing form. when it comes to real fight, that is of course not the way how it should be done as you mentioned. the focus is more on thrwoing in that portion of the demonstration.

    thank you for pointint it out anyway.

    A self defence video of mster Chung for your reference:
     
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  10. oaktree

    oaktree 3rd Black Belt

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    Sanshou doesn't mean combo attack. San=free or loose Shou=hand. Liang shou Yu says the San means random and Shou means hand. Both events are describing free fighting or sparring. I think the video is flashy not practical and looks more like hapkido than San Shou. Sanshou is known for its very distinct
    Throws. The qin na looks like hapkido maybe its the uniforms.
     
  11. mograph

    mograph Black Belt

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    When combined with other characters, this particular san is defined by Collins as loose, messy, slack or prose. Free and random should also fit. It could also be interpreted as non-ordered, non-regulated, improvised, non-scripted.

    Kinda like free sparring, I guess.

    But as for san da, the "da" is translated as "beat", as in "hit". It could be "free bout", as in a fighting event. It could also be an idiom, without much meaning when its components are separated. Oh, well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2012
  12. dre2308

    dre2308 Yellow Belt

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    I search randomly on youtube for Sanshou散手 video and here are what I found.













    In our style, we have many different styles of Sanshou. The Sanshou in the video is just one of the many. I am planning to post a few from each different styles in the future. Any criticism is welcome.

    also, see if you can find a Hapikido video that has the consecutive Qin Na like that in the OP video.
     
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  13. oaktree

    oaktree 3rd Black Belt

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    Hi Dre,
    Yes the videos have the hanzi San shou in it and we all know San shou means like free sparring.

    I guess when we are talking about San shou in America we are thinking more in the lines of this.

    San shou free sparring
    Sanshou but looks like Sanda
    Shuai Jiao


    This is similar to how in America when talking about Wushu/Kungfu

    Looking for videos of Hapkido that shows a similar joint lock is pointles. Of course in Hapkido, Jujutsu, Qinna, American wrestling they all have similar locks because only certain number of ways a joint can be moved. What differs is the methods on how the set up and concepts to put the locks on. Meaning You can have the same lock in Qin na and Judo but the Judoka might put it on after a throw while someone who studies say Wushu might put it on after a strike.

    If we look at your video the way the techniques are done just looks more inline with Hapkido and maybe thats the uniforms which are Korean helps bring that image more in depth. The video is a demo, its flashy, not practical, I don't feel it represents the characteristics of San shou and Sanda as applied in the videos I have shown which do show more of the characteristics. The other videos you have shown in this thread from Youtube look to be again, demos some poor, some ok but again nothing that to me has characteristics of San shou/Sanda.
     
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  14. dre2308

    dre2308 Yellow Belt

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    Hi Oaktree,

    Sanshou is a Chinese term that has long existed before Sanda has created. I just didn't know Sanshou nowadays refers more to Sanda and wrestling. thank you for clearing that up for me.

    I am not very familiar with Hapkido so please correct me if I am wrong. I breifly watched a few Hapkido videos on youtube, and I found that most of Hapkido throws are kind of similar to Judo's that they use a lot of shoulder and hip throwing tecniques, which is different from our throws. If you watch the first two throws carefully in the OP video, you will see what I mean.


    Most of our throws and Qin Na are from BaGua Sect([FONT=&quot]八卦門[/FONT]) in China. There are many different styles of throws in that school, and one of the most distinct one is the BaGua 48 QinNa sets, which is the technique at 1:04. I don’t think Hapkido has that type of consecutive Qin Na set although I admit some of our throws are similar to Hapikido’s.
     
  15. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    aaaaa no..... the term Sanda is older than Sanshou like Daoyin is older than Qigong.

    Furthermore there are multiple versions but lets just narrow that down to 2 Sport and non-sport and to be honest what you have shown in your videos was not really either of them.
     
  16. dre2308

    dre2308 Yellow Belt

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    Hi Xue Sheng,

    I was referring to the modern version of Sanda. I meant Sanshou has long existed before Sanda, the modern Chinese combat sport created in late 90's, does.

    Most of chinese martial art has its own style of Sanshou(combo attack) as you can see in the videos I posted.

    The term Sanda is older than Sanshou. I don't know if that is true but you could be right. perhaps you can tell us more about the history of it. however, logically Sanshou makes more sense to come before Sanda cuz Sanda similar to fighting involves more than one person to do it whereas Sanshou is just a fighting tool used in Sanda.

    yes, Daoin has long existed since Yellow Emperor's time.

    may I ask you why what I have shown in my video is not Sanshou??
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  17. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    By the definition I am using of Sanshou (散手; sǎnshǒu or 散打 sǎndǎ) it is not because those refer to a specific style of fighting like you see, as previosuly mentioned, done by Cung Le or what you see used by the PRC Army or Police. And your video is not either of those. Also Sanshou is not a fighting tool used by Sanda based on what I have been trained and researched. Sanshou is the name used to describe a form of fighting that was orignially called Sanda. Sanshou and Sanda are the same thing.

    Sanda was the original name of the Martial art that the PRC came up with for sport and for training its military and police. However the two look very different. And as far as I can tell Sanshou was first use to describe what was previously called a lei tai match and Lei tai can be traced to the Song Dynasty

    But I now think understand how you are using the term Sanshou. You are not referring to it as the style sanshou but sanshou within the style such as Taiji sanshou, or Bagua Sanshou. I son't think I have never heard or seen this used in this manor and I know I have never heard Sanda used in this manner. What I have heard is Tuishou which has been around a long time or or Chi Sao 黐手 chǐshǒu. But then I train mostly what is defined as internal styles and then it could be a dialect thing as to why you are using sanshou in this manor. Also my Sanda sifu never ever said Sanshuo was a tool of Sanda. He called it Sanda and said Sanshou was the modern terminology.
     
  18. dre2308

    dre2308 Yellow Belt

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    Hi Xue Sheng,

    thank you. I have learned a lot.
     
  19. blindsage

    blindsage Master of Arts

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    The two person form in Yang Taiji is referred to as Sanshou by some (including my lineage), I pretty sure you know this Xue, but the above paragraph makes it sound like you've never heard of it. I missed something right?
     
  20. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    No you didn't miss anything, I did.

    You are correct it is called Taiji Sanshou, my sifu places no emphisis on it so I tend to forget about it...that and I am old, forgetful and....ummm... did I say I was forgetful :uhyeah:

    l and I tend to lock on Sanda whenever I hear Sanshou because I trained it briefly... my bad.
     

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