Protective Tactics 101

[geezer]

...Don might be an excellent instructor* and his seminars might be good (if overpriced), but I'm with geezer in reacting poorly to this sort of manipulation.

*(Since opting to stick around and participate in other threads, Don has made comments which show me that he does have some knowledge and experience as a martial artist. As I noted earlier, nothing on the website or in his initial comments in this thread actually gave me any evidence of this.)

I've known and even trained under martial artists who believed in practiced the same kind of salesmanship that you describe in your post above. One in particular is very good in the system he practices, is a great instructor, and although he is pricey, he is a very honest businessman. But he really believes in selling himself in a way that would never work for me. He has tried repeatedly to get me to adopt similar practices, and to this day can't understand why I won't adopt them.

To him, my reluctance to get out there and SELL is almost like a character flaw ...otherwise we are friends. From my perspective, his use of these kinds of sales tactics is almost like a character flaw in a person I otherwise like and respect.

What can I say. It's almost like religion or politics. We are who we are.

 

[lklawson]

Fortunately for most salesmen, the majority of people respond differently. Example: Decades ago, as an undergraduate majoring in social anthropology, I learned about the concept or social reciprocity. In most societies, if you do a favor or offer a gift to another, they will fell obligated to reciprocate and return a similar favor. This sense of debt in return for a sincere favor is part of the glue that binds people in society together.

It's why the Hare Krishna's used to give away flowers at the airport.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

My events in Chesterton IN are only four hours from you. I guarantee it will be worth your time. I would love to get your input. The next event is June 25 & 26. Let me know if you'd like to attend with a guest, as my gift. I'm looking forward to having respected experts attend and post their experience on this thread.

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to drive that far. I do appreciate your willingness to extend the offer. Let me know if you have an even in the Dayton are.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Don Johnson]

More proof. This is a group of 90 people who chose to come to my school at 7:30a.m. on Memorial Day for my 6th annual Memorial Day Mega Calorie Crush. That's me front and center in all black wearing the microphone. They got a great workout and learned some basic self defense skills. Nearly 70 are regular attendees in our weekly classes, another 20 were guests. No doubt some of the guests will now become regular attendees.

For over 25 years, I've been "criticized and condemned" by others, and 99% of them have been others in my industry, not my clients. My first year as a full time martial arts school owner in 1991, I attracted over 150 students per week to attend my classes. By the mid 1990's, there were over 500 students attending my classes weekly. Martial Arts Business magazine selected my school among the top 100 schools from among over 30,000 in North America. That doesn't just happen. It requires sales and marketing to attract people, then delivering a great service for them to stay and refer others. I've done hundreds of presentations to tens of thousands, combined with basic sales and marketing. I've been on tv, radio, and in newspapers for over 25 years. As a result, I've personally helped thousands of students. Now I'm teaching people across the U.S., and some internationally, to literally save their life and save their family.

You can criticize me and sales and marketing strategies all you want. You may exercise social self defense and question the validity of a salesperson's claims. You may even question a salesman's true intentions. To the skeptical, it may sound as though I over promise. To my students, they believe I over deliver. The proof...hundreds of testimonials. My students can't all be lying. Bottom line, I'm helping a lot of people. They benefit, and so do I. A man much smarter than I once said that "You can have anything in life you want, if you'll help enough other people to get what they want."

You may be the best martial artist in the world, but if others don't know about you, you can't help them. If you've ever taught another person, you likely discovered that you learn more when you teach. Imagine how much better you could become if you too had taught thousands.

I appreciate the constructive feedback that has been offered in this thread that will empower me to improve my ability to attract others.

 

[mograph]

Arguably, the first rule of persuasion is know your audience.

 

[lklawson]

View attachment 19909
More proof. This is a group of 90 people who chose to come to my school

Argumentum ad populum. Just because a lot of people agree with your position doesn't mean it's true. There are millions of people who believe in Creationism and there are millions of people who believe the Big Bang. It's unlikely that both are right, but millions of people can't be wrong, right?

No offense, truly, but getting another group of 90 (or even 900) students isn't really "proof."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[mograph]

Argumentum ad populum. Just because a lot of people agree with your position doesn't mean it's true. [...] No offense, truly, but getting another group of 90 (or even 900) students isn't really "proof."

To put a finer point on it, all we can really say with any certainty is that the attendees enjoyed the workshops enough to come back. It looks as if they got a good workout, the atmosphere was fun, and they got to "mix it up" a fair bit. But would they be able to defend themselves outside of class, if surprised by an aggressive assailant, for example? If that is the promise of the class, it would be great to see -- please send a link if I've missed that.

Argumentum ad populum reminds me of course evaluations, where a popular professor who is friendly, has good energy (and challenges the students to a level they find engaging) gets good evaluations, independent of the fulfillment of the course's learning objectives.
Student Course Evaluations Get An 'F'

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Arguably, the first rule of persuasion is know your audience.

This is an excellent point.

The sales techniques we've discussed (like them or hate them) are probably quite effective for Don with his normal target audience.

Here, with an audience of subject matter experts, they're not likely to be so effective. Especially for those of us who recognize the manipulations and logical fallacies inherent in those techniques and dislike them.

On the other hand, I have travelled some distance and paid out money for seminars from a couple of our members here. I did this because I knew based on their participation here what they were offering, what their qualifications were, and a bit about what sort of person they were. If Don hopes to sell any of us on the value of what he's offering, his best bet is to establish his bona fides by offering intelligent, informed comments in the conversations here. To his credit, he seems to be working on that.

 

[Dirty Dog]

View attachment 19909
More proof. This is a group of 90 people who chose to come to my school at 7:30a.m. on Memorial Day for my 6th annual Memorial Day Mega Calorie Crush. That's me front and center in all black wearing the microphone.

George Dillman also attracts a lot of people, many of whom believe his "no touch knockout" nonsense is true.
Being able to sell something doesn't mean the something has value.
PT Barnum said it best.

You've dropped a few names, but you've never actually told us what your training, experience and rank is, nor who awarded said rank.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You've dropped a few names, but you've never actually told us what your training, experience and rank is, nor who awarded said rank.

He did state experience and training, but not rank/who awarded it

"33 years TaeKwonDo and Hapkido. 21 years Kali and Jujitsu."

 

[Tony Dismukes]

He did state experience and training, but not rank/who awarded it

"33 years TaeKwonDo and Hapkido. 21 years Kali and Jujitsu."

He also listed a bunch of people he's learned from, but not specified whether he actually trained with them or for how long. I asked the following questions last week but never got an answer:

1) What martial arts instructors have you actually studied under as an official student on a consistent basis? Not instructors where you attended a seminar or read a book or watched a video or had a conversation with - instructors where you actually showed up at their school every week on an ongoing basis?
2) How many years did you train with said instructors?
3) What ranks or certifications do you have from those instructors indicating that they stand behind your competencies in the material that they teach?

To be clear, having rank is neither necessary nor sufficient evidence for someone being a good teacher. There are high-ranked people out there who are terrible instructors and low-ranked/unranked people who are good instructors. What rank does tell you is that a certain instructor out there is willing to vouch for the achievements of the ranked person within a particular art. If you know something about the instructor awarding the rank, that may tell you something useful.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

He also listed a bunch of people he's learned from, but not specified whether he actually trained with them or for how long. I asked the following questions last week but never got an answer:



To be clear, having rank is neither necessary nor sufficient evidence for someone being a good teacher. There are high-ranked people out there who are terrible instructors and low-ranked/unranked people who are good instructors. What rank does tell you is that a certain instructor out there is willing to vouch for the achievements of the ranked person within a particular art. If you know something about the instructor awarding the rank, that may tell you something useful.

I agree with all of this, just pointing out that he did list definitive arts and a definitive time period

 

[JowGaWolf]

View attachment 19909
More proof. This is a group of 90 people who chose to come to my school at 7:30a.m. on Memorial Day for my 6th annual Memorial Day Mega Calorie Crush. That's me front and center in all black wearing the microphone. They got a great workout and learned some basic self defense skills. Nearly 70 are regular attendees in our weekly classes, another 20 were guests. No doubt some of the guests will now become regular attendees.

For over 25 years, I've been "criticized and condemned" by others, and 99% of them have been others in my industry, not my clients. My first year as a full time martial arts school owner in 1991, I attracted over 150 students per week to attend my classes. By the mid 1990's, there were over 500 students attending my classes weekly. Martial Arts Business magazine selected my school among the top 100 schools from among over 30,000 in North America. That doesn't just happen. It requires sales and marketing to attract people, then delivering a great service for them to stay and refer others. I've done hundreds of presentations to tens of thousands, combined with basic sales and marketing. I've been on tv, radio, and in newspapers for over 25 years. As a result, I've personally helped thousands of students. Now I'm teaching people across the U.S., and some internationally, to literally save their life and save their family.

You can criticize me and sales and marketing strategies all you want. You may exercise social self defense and question the validity of a salesperson's claims. You may even question a salesman's true intentions. To the skeptical, it may sound as though I over promise. To my students, they believe I over deliver. The proof...hundreds of testimonials. My students can't all be lying. Bottom line, I'm helping a lot of people. They benefit, and so do I. A man much smarter than I once said that "You can have anything in life you want, if you'll help enough other people to get what they want."

You may be the best martial artist in the world, but if others don't know about you, you can't help them. If you've ever taught another person, you likely discovered that you learn more when you teach. Imagine how much better you could become if you too had taught thousands.

I appreciate the constructive feedback that has been offered in this thread that will empower me to improve my ability to attract others.

That's a huge class. I only wish I could get that many, people to the Jow Ga classes. I already know up front that our target market is a small one. I've been talking to people like you in an effort to learn of ways that may help to attract more people who don't mind bruises.

 

[drop bear]

In contrast. a mate of mine is doing a wrestling seminar for $80 a day.

Which would lift anybody's sd game through the roof.

 

[Blindside]

In contrast. a mate of mine is doing a wrestling seminar for $80 a day.

Which would lift anybody's sd game through the roof.

Yeah but it wouldn't be a "mega calorie crush."

 

[Dirty Dog]

In contrast. a mate of mine is doing a wrestling seminar for $80 a day.

Which would lift anybody's sd game through the roof.

It can't be any good, because it's reasonably priced. I bet it won't even make you unbeatable in all situations, prevent diabetes, and regrow hair on a bald mans head!

 

[drop bear]

That is the thing with a seminar though. For the big money i would want to be blown away by the concepts and techniques.

I dont want to pay for eye gouge. I can figure out eye gouge on my own.

I would want a technical expert to give me the last ten percent on some basic ideas.

Like with that seminar if i could walk away with how to do one move right It would be money well spent. And I have only met a couple of guys with the ability to do that.

Regardless of the system

 

[JowGaWolf]

That is the thing with a seminar though. For the big money i would want to be blown away by the concepts and techniques.

I dont want to pay for eye gouge. I can figure out eye gouge on my own.

I would want a technical expert to give me the last ten percent on some basic ideas.

Like with that seminar if i could walk away with how to do one move right It would be money well spent. And I have only met a couple of guys with the ability to do that.

Regardless of the system

good insight. I'll keep that in mind

 

[Dakin]

Charged, but not convicted.

But Don, you just haven't gone to trial yet. You've done a great job on delaying that, by the way.