Problems with "traditional arts" part 2

[now disabled]

Am I right in saying that the DNBK was purged ?

As were other more "secret" groups

 

[now disabled]

I guess when I mentioned the occupation etc I opened a door of huge dimensions (and rightly so it is a huge and vast ranging topic and of many diverse influences) what I was getting at and I was probably unclear on was like when the Tokugawa established their Shogunate and the Ryu adapted and changed and evolved due to that influence ... Did the occupation (I believe it did) again influence the change of the schools? How they taught, To whom they taught and what they actually taught?

One thing I have noticed (and purely my own opinion) is that the Japanese may not actually create a "thing" themselves but they are very good at adapting a thing making it their own and then exporting it for gain. There by ...they did not invent the arts but (due to the Pacific War and subsequent occupation) they did export them and fairly successfully, The question is to me what did they export and now due to the world being so globally connected a people researching more and more and again because of the technology to share said are we not getting very hung up on what is tradition and what is not?, where it came from and why? and is it that in the 21st cent we are guilty of trying to grab the past for justification etc and are we not really guilty of looking back through tinted glasses and taking things out of context?

 

[hoshin1600]

I think I know what you mean

Are you talking about the Imperial Rescript on Education ?

no. i was talking about a document by the US Governement.

Imperial Rescript on Education - Wikipedia

The Imperial Rescript on Education (教育に関する勅語 Kyōiku ni Kansuru Chokugo) was signed by Emperor Meiji of Japan on 30 October 1890 to articulate government policy on the guiding principles of education on the Empire of Japan. The 315 character document was read aloud at all important school events, and students were required to study and memorize the text.

The Rescript requested of the people that they "furthermore advance public good and promote common interests; always respect the Constitution and observe the laws; should emergency arise, offer yourselves courageously to the State; and thus guard and maintain the prosperity of Our Imperial Throne coeval with heaven and earth".

The basis of the Rescript was that Japan's unique kokutai (system of government) was based on a historic bond between benevolent rulers and loyal subjects, and that the fundamental purpose of education was to cultivate virtues, especially loyalty and filial piety.

After the end of World War II in Asia following the surrender of Japan, the American occupation authorities forbade the formal reading of the Imperial Rescript in schools, and the National Diet officially abolished it on 19 June 1948.

 

[now disabled]

no. i was talking about a document by the US Governement.

Imperial Rescript on Education - Wikipedia

The Imperial Rescript on Education (教育に関する勅語 Kyōiku ni Kansuru Chokugo) was signed by Emperor Meiji of Japan on 30 October 1890 to articulate government policy on the guiding principles of education on the Empire of Japan. The 315 character document was read aloud at all important school events, and students were required to study and memorize the text.

The Rescript requested of the people that they "furthermore advance public good and promote common interests; always respect the Constitution and observe the laws; should emergency arise, offer yourselves courageously to the State; and thus guard and maintain the prosperity of Our Imperial Throne coeval with heaven and earth".

The basis of the Rescript was that Japan's unique kokutai (system of government) was based on a historic bond between benevolent rulers and loyal subjects, and that the fundamental purpose of education was to cultivate virtues, especially loyalty and filial piety.

After the end of World War II in Asia following the surrender of Japan, the American occupation authorities forbade the formal reading of the Imperial Rescript in schools, and the National Diet officially abolished it on 19 June 1948.

ok my apologies

 

[hoshin1600]

I guess when I mentioned the occupation etc I opened a door of huge dimensions (and rightly so it is a huge and vast ranging topic and of many diverse influences) what I was getting at and I was probably unclear on was like when the Tokugawa established their Shogunate and the Ryu adapted and changed and evolved due to that influence ... Did the occupation (I believe it did) again influence the change of the schools? How they taught, To whom they taught and what they actually taught?

One thing I have noticed (and purely my own opinion) is that the Japanese may not actually create a "thing" themselves but they are very good at adapting a thing making it their own and then exporting it for gain. There by ...they did not invent the arts but (due to the Pacific War and subsequent occupation) they did export them and fairly successfully, The question is to me what did they export and now due to the world being so globally connected a people researching more and more and again because of the technology to share said are we not getting very hung up on what is tradition and what is not?, where it came from and why? and is it that in the 21st cent we are guilty of trying to grab the past for justification etc and are we not really guilty of looking back through tinted glasses and taking things out of context?

good questions. a lot to try to unpack there.
i think something that is generally over looked and something i try to always point out is that there has to be a distinction between Okinawan martial arts.. (i refer to this as Tode) and the martial arts that were brought and further developed on main land Japan starting with Funakoshi ( i call karate)
they are not really the same if we use todays common divisions and to lump them together as just karate causes more problems and incorrect assumptions. it would be like describing humans, neanderthal and cro magnon as all just people.

the biggest effect on karate was the transfer from Okinawan to Japan by Funakoshi. that being only one source rather than multiple, creates a single dimentional result. second is the re appropriation of karate for the war by the Japanese Governement. then the back lash into pacifisim by the Japanese people along with the sport aspect that we already mentioned. THEN all this is brought back to Okinawa from Japan. the third factor is the American influx into the Okinawan dojo. things were codified, dumbed down and passed on to American service men who brought it back to America starting a kind of feed back loop between the two countries.

 

[Anarax]

If Elon Musk could build us robotic sparing partners this would help.

Interesting, I was going to start a thread about this.

 

[Buka]

I have a question about the OP.

3. "Traditional" arts often hold back information. They are somewhat secretive and unwilling to share or talk about what they consider important elements of their system. Among their own students they may teach the "secrets" or the "good parts" to only a select few that demonstrate loyalty over many years. Or they may string out their curriculum over a long period of time simply to keep students coming and paying the tuition

Is this actually a thing? I've never actually encountered this.

 

[drop bear]

I have a question about the OP.

3. "Traditional" arts often hold back information. They are somewhat secretive and unwilling to share or talk about what they consider important elements of their system. Among their own students they may teach the "secrets" or the "good parts" to only a select few that demonstrate loyalty over many years. Or they may string out their curriculum over a long period of time simply to keep students coming and paying the tuition

Is this actually a thing? I've never actually encountered this.

If it is a secret. How would you know?

 

[TSDTexan]

Interesting, I was going to start a thread about this.

ive been dreaming this dream since about '89.
sparring robots....

 

[TSDTexan]

Am I right in saying that the DNBK was purged ?

As were other more "secret" groups

it was terminated by AF-GHQ in '46 everyone fired! Assets sold off. But it didn't stay dead but seven years.

 

[TSDTexan]

If it is a secret. How would you know?

shuuuuuuush...
you arnt allowed to let people know that even the secrets exist.

 

[TSDTexan]

I guess when I mentioned the occupation etc I opened a door of huge dimensions (and rightly so it is a huge and vast ranging topic and of many diverse influences) what I was getting at and I was probably unclear on was like when the Tokugawa established their Shogunate and the Ryu adapted and changed and evolved due to that influence ... Did the occupation (I believe it did) again influence the change of the schools? How they taught, To whom they taught and what they actually taught?

One thing I have noticed (and purely my own opinion) is that the Japanese may not actually create a "thing" themselves but they are very good at adapting a thing making it their own and then exporting it for gain. There by ...they did not invent the arts but (due to the Pacific War and subsequent occupation) they did export them and fairly successfully, The question is to me what did they export and now due to the world being so globally connected a people researching more and more and again because of the technology to share said are we not getting very hung up on what is tradition and what is not?, where it came from and why? and is it that in the 21st cent we are guilty of trying to grab the past for justification etc and are we not really guilty of looking back through tinted glasses and taking things out of context?

Well, the occupation of Okinawa happened in the 1600s by an army of the Satsuma Clan. So that was a very long pre WW2 occupation. But the occupation was a soft occupation, in the sense, that they left Okinawa its kings. And they had the kings pay tribute to the Emperor of China and pretend to be a vassal state of China.

 

[TSDTexan]

no. i was talking about a document by the US Governement.

Imperial Rescript on Education - Wikipedia

The Imperial Rescript on Education (教育に関する勅語 Kyōiku ni Kansuru Chokugo) was signed by Emperor Meiji of Japan on 30 October 1890 to articulate government policy on the guiding principles of education on the Empire of Japan. The 315 character document was read aloud at all important school events, and students were required to study and memorize the text.

The Rescript requested of the people that they "furthermore advance public good and promote common interests; always respect the Constitution and observe the laws; should emergency arise, offer yourselves courageously to the State; and thus guard and maintain the prosperity of Our Imperial Throne coeval with heaven and earth".

The basis of the Rescript was that Japan's unique kokutai (system of government) was based on a historic bond between benevolent rulers and loyal subjects, and that the fundamental purpose of education was to cultivate virtues, especially loyalty and filial piety.

After the end of World War II in Asia following the surrender of Japan, the American occupation authorities forbade the formal reading of the Imperial Rescript in schools, and the National Diet officially abolished it on 19 June 1948.

Yeah
... this is some of the Meiji War Machine's stuff.

 

[TSDTexan]

good questions. a lot to try to unpack there.
i think something that is generally over looked and something i try to always point out is that there has to be a distinction between Okinawan martial arts.. (i refer to this as Tode) and the martial arts that were brought and further developed on main land Japan starting with Funakoshi ( i call karate)
they are not really the same if we use todays common divisions and to lump them together as just karate causes more problems and incorrect assumptions. it would be like describing humans, neanderthal and cro magnon as all just people.

the biggest effect on karate was the transfer from Okinawan to Japan by Funakoshi. that being only one source rather than multiple, creates a single dimentional result. second is the re appropriation of karate for the war by the Japanese Governement. then the back lash into pacifisim by the Japanese people along with the sport aspect that we already mentioned. THEN all this is brought back to Okinawa from Japan. the third factor is the American influx into the Okinawan dojo. things were codified, dumbed down and passed on to American service men who brought it back to America starting a kind of feed back loop between the two countries.

Very well said.
It is interesting that in Okinawa... there exists Japanese karate.... and a more primitive Uchinadi/ToDii. It's rarer, but still alive. They don't wear the Gi, or do a lot of the Japanese derived stuff. Some call themselves other things than karate. And they might call themselves a kabudo school, or a Tuite school... or just a family art that isn't taught to the public.

 

[TSDTexan]

Found it.... was looking forever... some good stuff on the Japanese Karate ban... and survival.
Karate, Taekwondo, crecent kicks etc. | Ryukyu Bugei 琉球武芸

 

[hoshin1600]

JCS: Documentation Regarding the Budo Ban

"With the end of the war in August 1945, the Ministry of Education regained control of Japan’s physical education curriculum, and this ended the bayonet and grenade throwing in the Japanese public schools. Simultaneously, judo, kendo, kyudo, and karate teachers began returning their instruction to prewar standards. Consequently, most martial art practitioners expected that it wouldn’t be long before tournaments and promotions resumed, similar to what they had been before the war.

Then, on October 22, 1945, the Supreme Commander Allied Powers (SCAP) notified the Ministry of Education that "dissemination of militaristic and ultranationalistic ideology will be prohibited and all military education and drill will be discontinued." Two months later, on January 4, 1946, SCAP issued Directive 550, which, with its companion Directive 548, required "the removal and exclusion from public life of militaristic and ultra nationalistic persons." One result of these orders was that the Ministry of Education eliminated martial arts from school curricula and another was that the Dai Nippon Butokukai was closed.

Although new federations quickly arose to take the place of the Butokukai, its closure still left Japan without a central regulatory authority for martial arts for the first time in decades. Meanwhile, from 1946 until 1948, SCAP actively persecuted ("purged") former fascists. Some of the latter were martial art enthusiasts. This added to the confusion about what was legal and what was not, and the result was confusion in Japanese martial art circles that did not begin working itself out until the late 1940s.

Because of this postwar confusion, there has since arisen the perception that SCAP imposed a Budo Ban on Japan. In reality, however, the "budo" banned was not traditional martial arts such as kendo and judo, but instead the products of state fascism that operated under the same name during the 1930s and 1940s.."

 

[TSDTexan]

JCS: Documentation Regarding the Budo Ban

"With the end of the war in August 1945, the Ministry of Education regained control of Japan’s physical education curriculum, and this ended the bayonet and grenade throwing in the Japanese public schools. Simultaneously, judo, kendo, kyudo, and karate teachers began returning their instruction to prewar standards. Consequently, most martial art practitioners expected that it wouldn’t be long before tournaments and promotions resumed, similar to what they had been before the war.

Then, on October 22, 1945, the Supreme Commander Allied Powers (SCAP) notified the Ministry of Education that "dissemination of militaristic and ultranationalistic ideology will be prohibited and all military education and drill will be discontinued." Two months later, on January 4, 1946, SCAP issued Directive 550, which, with its companion Directive 548, required "the removal and exclusion from public life of militaristic and ultra nationalistic persons." One result of these orders was that the Ministry of Education eliminated martial arts from school curricula and another was that the Dai Nippon Butokukai was closed.

Although new federations quickly arose to take the place of the Butokukai, its closure still left Japan without a central regulatory authority for martial arts for the first time in decades. Meanwhile, from 1946 until 1948, SCAP actively persecuted ("purged") former fascists. Some of the latter were martial art enthusiasts. This added to the confusion about what was legal and what was not, and the result was confusion in Japanese martial art circles that did not begin working itself out until the late 1940s.

Because of this postwar confusion, there has since arisen the perception that SCAP imposed a Budo Ban on Japan. In reality, however, the "budo" banned was not traditional martial arts such as kendo and judo, but instead the products of state fascism that operated under the same name during the 1930s and 1940s.."

In the footnotes the book
McCarthy, P. (1999). Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts: Koryu Uchinadi. Rutland, Vermont and Tokyo: C. E. Tuttle.
is cited. I own this book. it's pretty good.

also in the footnotes, was this fact that the there was so budo banning going on.

Excerpts of Report from the 9th Session of the Committee on Petitions held on 30 August 1946 during the 90th Session of the House of Representatives

Mr. Bando, member of the Diet-- "Judo is banned, but there are various jujitsu, similar to judo, such as the Azuma school, or Shibukawa school. Also there is karate. Do you mean all these, as well as judo, are banned?"

Mr. Hidaka, government representative--"Yes, it is so. Judo, karate, kyudo, everything that is called by the name of budo is not supposed to be used [in the schools]. That is the understanding we have agreed upon."

----

As I continue to read, and reread this site's page, I am amazed at how much material is presented here.
Thanks for sharing the link @hoshin1600

 

[now disabled]

I have a question about the OP.

3. "Traditional" arts often hold back information. They are somewhat secretive and unwilling to share or talk about what they consider important elements of their system. Among their own students they may teach the "secrets" or the "good parts" to only a select few that demonstrate loyalty over many years. Or they may string out their curriculum over a long period of time simply to keep students coming and paying the tuition

Is this actually a thing? I've never actually encountered this.

Maybe it could be that that is referring to the inner teachings. Ie the teachings that were only imparted to a person that was considered at a certain level

or

it could be a thing that has kinda come to the fore recently with the publication of books with translations of "secret scrolls"

Imo all the scrolls of all the schools were originally "secret" as well a bit like today if you have the patent on something you ain't gonna share it publicly (might not be a great example)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

shuuuuuuush...
you arnt allowed to let people know that even the secrets exist.

The first rule of Secret Club...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The first rule of Secret Club...

Sometime secret is kept between different MA styles.

In Taiwan, many Chinese wrestlers compete in Judo tournament (and the other way around). Chinese wrestlers like to grab their opponent's jacket and runs in circle. The Chinese wrestler teacher told his students that don't teach that counter to the outside. Something very funny happened in those Judo tournaments. The moment that a Judo guy detects that his opponent is a Chinese wrestler, the moment that the Judo guy will use his own hand to grab on his own cross lapel to prevent his opponent to grab on it.