Problems with roundhouse kick

[Gerry Seymour]

This is my point. If you train Karate roundhouse kick instead of MT roundhouse kick, your tool will have less function to perform.

The MT low roundhouse kick can be used to

- hurt your opponent's leg, or
- function as a foot sweep.

The Karate roundhouse kick can't be used for that function.

Does Karate "low" roundhouse kick (to hurt opponent's leg) even exist?

Okay, but if you have other tools that can perform that function (not the least being the exact same kick with the toes extended, which some styles ALSO use), then what's the issue? You're very much overgeneralizing Karate. There are a lot of differences between styles, so there's not just one "Karate roundhouse".

 

[wab25]

KFW, you certainly have a low opinion of karate / TKD roundhouse kicks...

The discussion is whether the roundhouse kick with the ball is worthwhile for your training time or not. It wont' work well if you

- have shoes on.

If you can kick with the top of the foot and with the ball of the foot, then you can do what you need to with foot wear. Just because you are wearing shoes, doesn't mean you always want to slap the other guy with the laces. If you can articulate the shoe, you could still use the ball. You could also be able to adjust the angle of your foot, to strike with the sole of the shoe. If you are wearing steel toed work boots, you won't be able to use the ball... but the steel toe will leave a mark. Its about control, and options.

- fully rotate your body.

If you mean fully rotating your body in a circle, MT style, then you are not using the top of the foot, or ball of the foot... you are using the shin. If you are talking about a karate / TKD style kick, you would have the same full body integration, regardless of which surface you strike with.

- use low roundhouse kick (to hurt your opponent's leg).

Why? There are targets on the leg, that will do damage... and they are easier to hit with the ball of the foot than the higher up targets. Thats why beginners are able to start with low kicks. Any target you are aiming at with the shin, can be hit with the ball of the foot... and will do similar amounts of damage.

Does Karate low roundhouse kick (to hurt opponent's leg even exist?

Yep. So do low front snap kicks, to the opponents leg. You can target the ankle, the calf, the knee (I prefer using ball or shin on the knee) and both inner and outer thigh. You can also target the hips and groin, though I find the ball or heel of the foot better for attacking the hips.

The MT kick generates more power and hits harder. Its also slower, more telegraphed and results in an over rotation on a miss. The karate / TKD kicks are slightly less powerful, but are faster and don't over rotate you. Which kick does more damage? The one you can land in a given situation. The MT kick may be 100 times as strong, but if the other guy sees it coming, steps out of range, then takes your back... what good did it do? Learn both. Practice both. Learn the pros and cons of each. Learn when to use each.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Okay, but if you have other tools that can perform that function (not the least being the exact same kick with the toes extended, which some styles ALSO use), then what's the issue? You're very much overgeneralizing Karate. There are a lot of differences between styles, so there's not just one "Karate roundhouse".

I don't mind to replace "Karate" with "Chinese MA". The MT roundhouse kick is superior than the CMA roundhouse kick. Does this make you feel a little bit better?

All MA system has PRO and CON. MT is not perfect either. MT also has CON such as the MT double neck tie.

So I'm not saying that MT is better than Karate, or CMA. As far as the roundhouse kick, MT has the best approach.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't mind to replace "Karate" with "Chinese MA". The MT roundhouse kick is superior than the CMA roundhouse kick. Does this make you feel a little bit better?

No, because you're comparing one kick to a hypothetical one kick. If you claim it's more powerful than any you're aware of in CMA, I might buy that. (It's certainly more powerful than the kicks I'm aware of in CMA - since I know of none! ) If you said it's more versatile than any single kick you're aware of in CMA, I might even buy that. But to say it's more versatile than "the CMA kick" is nonsensical.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

KFW, you certainly have a low opinion of karate / TKD roundhouse kicks...

I don't have low opinion of Karate/TKD roundhouse kick. I just have high opinion on MT roundhouse kick.

As I have said, I also have low opinion of the CMA roundhouse kick too.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No, because you're comparing one kick to a hypothetical one kick. If you claim it's more powerful than any you're aware of in CMA, I might buy that. (It's certainly more powerful than the kicks I'm aware of in CMA - since I know of none! ) If you said it's more versatile than any single kick you're aware of in CMA, I might even buy that. But to say it's more versatile than "the CMA kick" is nonsensical.

- I'm comparing MT roundhouse kick with CMA roundhouse kick.
- I'm not comparing MT roundhouse kick with all CMA kicks.

You may say that a front kick, side kick, or reverse side kick can also be used to hurt the leg. But we are talking about low roundhouse kick here.

If I put MT roundhouse kick into my toolbox, I can have more usage than if I put Karate roundhouse kick into my toolbox (my toolbox doesn't only contain CMA tools). If my opponent moves in, I can use it to hurt his leg.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

- I'm comparing MT roundhouse kick with CMA roundhouse kick.
- I'm not comparing MT roundhouse kick with all CMA kicks.

You may say that a front kick, side kick, or reverse side kick can also be used to hurt the leg. But we are talking about low roundhouse kick here.

The issue is that there's not just one "Karate roundhouse" kick. The version I know would be derived from either Shotokan or Goju (some day I'm going to corner someone from each art to figure out if I'm right), and isn't the kind of kick you're talking about.

You seem to be combining two arguments into this, so let me separate them and see if I'm following what you mean:

• Kicking with the top of the foot is more versatile than kicking with the ball of the foot. I agree, but mostly in ignorance of the alternative, since top-of-the-foot is the version of a roundhouse kick I'm trained in.
• Kicking with body rotation is more powerful, and therefor superior. I agree and disagree. Power isn't inherently superior, if it trades off something else (which it does). I'd rather kick with power, when I have the opening to do so safely. When I'm not sure of that opening, I'd rather use a more conservative kick. That's why I train both the MT-style rotation and the more reserved version taught in NGA.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kicking with the top of the foot is more versatile than kicking with the ball of the foot.

When you kick with the top of the foot, your whole leg can be a weapon.

- the top of the foot,
- the shin bone,
- the knee.

The nice thing about this is, you don't care the contact point. Any part of your leg that can hit on your opponent can be fine. You leg is functioned as a "whip".

It's ashamed that the concept to "use leg as a whip" is not emphasized enough in both Karate/TKD and CMA.

 

[TSDTexan]

This is my point. If you train Karate roundhouse kick instead of MT roundhouse kick, your tool will have less function to perform.

The MT low roundhouse kick can be used to

- hurt your opponent's leg, or
- function as a foot sweep.

The Karate roundhouse kick can't be used for that function.

Does Karate "low" roundhouse kick (to hurt opponent's leg) even exist?

that is not true for karate.
no. there are many applications or versions of mawashi geri.
it is a roundhouse knee.
It is an instep kick or a ball of the foot.
In combat boots or steel toes... or a well developed barefoot Uechi ryu practitioner it uses the point of big toe and the next toe to it.
And karate also does use a mawashi geri where the shin is the impact weapon.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The problem with that type of kick is if you miss then your back is turned to the opponent

I do believe MT practitioners, when they are using this particular kick, practice it with the full intention of recovering to a fighting position as quickly as possible using the momentum of the kick to bring them around. I know that is what we do in Kyokushin when we practice this kick. Yes, you do take your eyes off your opponent for a brief moment but it is with the full intention of setting up another kick or sequence as others have also said.

Regarding the spin when you miss with a MT style round kick, there's something most people don't realize.

Because the primary striking surface is the shin, in order for the kick to miss completely, the target has to move back a fair distance pretty quickly. It's pretty tricky to see the kick coming, step back 18 inches or so, then reverse direction and close the gap quickly enough to catch the kicker with his back still turned - especially if you are cognizant of the possibility of running into a spinning elbow or backfist along the way. It's not impossible, but I rarely see it.

 

[skribs]

I believe that the MT roundhouse kick is superior than the Karate/TKD roundhouse kick. I like the 360 degree body rotation. It's much easier for my knee joint.

You can do this in Taekwondo.

Personally, I find it's a lot harder to hit with the ball of your feet on a roundhouse than on a front kick. On a front kick, you typically do this with your foot pointed down, on a roundhouse pointed up. It's easier to catch your toes and flex your toes or your ankle further than you want it to, and it has less reach.

I've tried roundhouse with the ball of the foot, with the instep, and with the shin, and I've found the instep to be the far superior version.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The MT low roundhouse kick can be used to

- hurt your opponent's leg, or
- function as a foot sweep.

The Karate roundhouse kick can't be used for that function.

Does Karate "low" roundhouse kick (to hurt opponent's leg) even exist?

 

[dvcochran]

This is my point. If you train Karate roundhouse kick instead of MT roundhouse kick, your tool will have less function to perform.

The MT low roundhouse kick can be used to

- hurt your opponent's leg, or
- function as a foot sweep.

The Karate roundhouse kick can't be used for that function.

Does Karate "low" roundhouse kick (to hurt opponent's leg) even exist?

I had my thigh muscle separated by a ball of the foot roundhouse kick. One of the worst pains I can remember. It can definitely work to the leg.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I find it's very difficult to do roundhouse kick with the ball of the foot when I have shoes on. What do you think?

With shoes on, I find that kicking with the toe of the shoe works quite well.

All MA system has PRO and CON. MT is not perfect either. MT also has CON such as the MT double neck tie.

Muay Thai's clinch game (which includes the double neck tie) is very sophisticated and effective. I'll have to disagree with considering that a con.

When you kick with the top of the foot, your whole leg can be a weapon.

- the top of the foot,
- the shin bone,
- the knee.

The nice thing about this is, you don't care the contact point. Any part of your leg that can hit on your opponent can be fine. You leg is functioned as a "whip".

It's ashamed that the concept to "use leg as a whip" is not emphasized enough in both Karate/TKD and CMA.

In terms of body mechanics, I'd say that the Muay Thai round kick is more like a baseball bat. If you want a kick like a whip, that would be something more along the lines of the foette from Savate:

 

[Yokozuna514]

The second video showed a very famous fight between two legends, Hajime Kazumi and Gary O'Neill. Gary O'Neill was smaller in stature but had one of the best kicking tool chests around in his era. Hajime Kazumi was one of the winningest knockdown fighters ever but when he retired to open up his own dojo he decided to focus exclusively on kata. He may have changed his focus in recently years but I found his choice to move from knockdown kumite to a more kata based karate very interesting. In any event, good selection of vids.

 

[Orion Nebula]

This thread has gone beyond the scope of my question, but I am enjoying reading all of the arguments for and against roundhouse variations! I also love all of these videos - these didn't exist when I first trained (I don't even remember if YouTube existed yet... I don't think so). I have to do my roundhouse a certain way in the dojo (because ball of the foot is the Shotokan way), but these are great things to think about trying on my own!

 

[skribs]

This thread has gone beyond the scope of my question, but I am enjoying reading all of the arguments for and against roundhouse variations! I also love all of these videos - these didn't exist when I first trained (I don't even remember if YouTube existed yet... I don't think so). I have to do my roundhouse a certain way in the dojo (because ball of the foot is the Shotokan way), but these are great things to think about trying on my own!

One thing I've learned about teaching is that you teach the rules first, and you teach the exceptions later. For example, you teach kids not to curse, and then teenagers figure out when it is and is not ok to curse. My guitar teacher taught me the strict rules of music theory, but also told me that later on we'll throw them out the window.

I think the same applies here. We have several ways of doing a roundhouse kick and they each have their place. If you know you're going to hit what you're aiming for, ball of the foot is better. If you need the reach, instep is better. If you're in close, shin is better. There's differences too if you're doing a kick for the purpose of:

• Tagging the opponent for a point
• Hitting the opponent in the shin
• Going for a KO
• Doing a demonstration of technique
• Filming an action scene
• Isolating portions of the technique to work on body control

It also depends on how it fits into your system. A lot of the kicks at my Taekwondo school we do from the side, where the angles would make a ball of the foot kick very hard to pull off. The instep is much better there. In a Muay Thai clinch, the shin makes the most sense. As someone else suggested, if you train for shoes, then the toes make a lot more sense (because you're hitting with the welt instead of your toes).

Personally, having the instep, I wouldn't train for the ball-of-the-foot technique. I just don't see it as enough of a difference to warrant training for it. I do train for a front kick both instep and ball of the foot, because for a front kick you're training two different things (kicking straight or kicking up). But for a roundhouse kick knowing both seems superfluous to me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Both clips must be taken after 1973. Back in 1973, I attended a Karate tournament meeting. Before that meeting, the roundhouse kick could only scored with the ball of the foot. If you kicked with the instep, you won't get the point. One Karate instructor complained about this rule and said in his personal experience, roundhouse kick with instep could hurt too. After that meeting, Karate community started to grand point for instep roundhouse kick.

I still remember back then, a hammer fist on top of the head won't give you a point in Karate tournament either. Everything started to change after the full contact Karate started to get popular.

I think MT roundhouse kick starts to have influence on Karate roundhouse kick (which is a good thing).

 

[Yokozuna514]

Both clips must be taken after 1973. Back in 1973, I attended a Karate tournament meeting. Before that meeting, the roundhouse kick could only scored with the ball of the foot. If you kicked with the instep, you won't get the point. One Karate instructor complained about this rule and said in his personal experience, roundhouse kick with instep could hurt too. After that meeting, Karate community started to grand point for instep roundhouse kick.

I still remember back then, a hammer fist on top of the head won't give you a point in Karate tournament either. Everything started to change after the full contact Karate started to get popular.

I think MT roundhouse kick starts to have influence on Karate roundhouse kick (which is a good thing).

You must be referring to point style fighting because all forms of roundhouse kicks (mawashi geri) were used in tournament fighting dating back to the 1st Kyokushin World Tournament. Knockdown Karate rules are different though so 1/2 points are scored only when a significant strike is registered by your opponent’s outward display of pain or by a knockout. Using the ball of the foot, instep or top to do it is of no consideration.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Back in 2008, the Dallas Taiji Legacy Sanda tournament started to grand one point for low roundhouse kick below the knee. I complained to that new rule and accepted a challenge. One guy used low roundhouse kick to kick on my leg as many times as he liked until he stopped. IMO, when your opponent use low roundhouse kick to kick below your knee, if you turn your shin bone into his kick, it's shin bone against shin bone. The result depend on who has stronger shin bone and who can take more pain. The person who does the kick can receive the same amount of pain as the person who takes the kick.

This may have nothing to do with the OP's original question. But roundhouse kick is a fun subject. It deserves to be discussed in more detail. I'm a Sanda coach. The roundhouse kick is used more often than any other kicks in the ring. After all, there are not that many threads discussion that everybody will be interested no matter what MA style that you may train.

I have trained the long fist roundhouse kick, Karate roundhouse kick (Gōjū-ryū (剛柔流) for only 3 months), TKD roundhouse kick, and MT roundhouse kick. It's fun to compare the difference.