Pressure shooting

[OULobo]

A gun doesnt require much training??? Requires more training than a knife does.

Mike

Those educated in firearms understand the complicated nature of PROPER operation, but the average street thug or even child with no training at all can point and pull a trigger. There is little defense for such an attack, but untrained man with a knife can attack and anyone can use their hands to obsturct out of instinct. For the knife wielder to be effective he needs to know that the edge can cut any body part not just the throat or abdomin, which is where the untrained center all their stabs (the attack most inexperienced knifers seem to restrict themselves to). It takes considerably less training for an average untrained person to effectively attack an average untrained person with a gun than the same situation with a knife.

I can agree with most of that up to the "more acceptable" part. I think a hacked up BG could go worse for you than a BG shot by a legally owned gun.

That's true., I was looking at it in terms of public perception of possession. No one gives me a second glance if I have a tac. folder, but people would watch me like a hawk if I had a gun.

 

[loki09789]

It is ironic that this firearms and training issue is still in effect. Historically, crossbowman HATED musketeers because Musketeers could be trained to combat effectiveness in obsenely short periods of time relative to the training that Crossbowman underwent. Before that, longbowmen HATED crossbowman for the same reasons. Technology is threatening to tradition because it does exactly what it is suppose to, it acts as a force multiplier or equalizer (remember the pistol). Over time, technology - effectively applied to a tactical scheme - becomes common place because it works. When the next advancement comes the new traditionalists will be suspicious. Look at the evolution of computers/lasers/communications in the modern battle field and some of the reliability issues that critics use.

 

[loki09789]

[/QUOTE]No one gives me a second glance if I have a tac. folder, but people would watch me like a hawk if I had a gun.[/QUOTE]


It depends on the size/carry of the weapon. I had a guest instructor walk into my class one day, do his intro in a polo shirt and Khakis w/his whole body in plain view of the students. When he drew his .380 smith from an inside the belt holster, they were all shocked beyond words. He emptied the weapon in front of the class, placed a t-block in the chamber and proceeded to teach weapon retention/difusion techniques.... until he drew the pistol no one knew it was there.

 

[loki09789]

Along the lines of pressure drills that might combine MA/FMA empty hand/blade training with firearms training, consider the basic blade rule that you DON"T put your own flesh between your target and the blade for fear of cutting yourself. Firearms training has similar postures that use a live/free hand to clear or defend a CQ attacker while chambering the pistol in either the center of the chest or along the hip like a chambered reverse punch.

 

[OULobo]

I think I remember Guru Inosanto telling a story once about how many of the Constibulatories of the Philippines learned to use the .45 as a pistol-grip short stick during battle. The U.S. officers would only give them one bullet, to ensure that a rebellion would be harder, so they resorted to using a bolo in combat, and would only use the pistol a a blunt striking weapon until they met someone that they decided was a little too good to go to blades with. That's the guy that got the bullet. This type of use is a good way to transition knife or espada y daga to firearms.

 

[Akula]

I came across a video clip on the internet at http://www.systemacalifornia.com/video/surefire.rm (in Real Media format) that shows various items discussed here being used. Using the free hand to clear an attacker, weapon retention, some knife work, and others.

 

[loki09789]

I have seen some CQB techniques that sound similiar to the pistol grip stick idea. Marcinko's SOS Temps uses a 'muzzle thrust' where you stap the BG in the center of the chest or face to create time and distance or as a less than lethal 'negotiation' technique.

 

[Tgace]

I have seen some CQB techniques that sound similiar to the pistol grip stick idea. Marcinko's SOS Temps uses a 'muzzle thrust' where you stap the BG in the center of the chest or face to create time and distance or as a less than lethal 'negotiation' technique.

I would use that as a last resort. Muzzle strikes would worry me regarding creating jams and malfunctions in automatics. If ya gotta do it, ya gotta do it though. Back in the 60's an officer here tried to pistol whip a suspect with his revolver (was common back then). The gun discharged and killed the suspect, big wrongfull death case ensued.

 

[loki09789]

I would use that as a last resort. Muzzle strikes would worry me regarding creating jams and malfunctions in automatics. If ya gotta do it, ya gotta do it though. Back in the 60's an officer here tried to pistol whip a suspect with his revolver (was common back then). The gun discharged and killed the suspect, big wrongfull death case ensued.

Definitely a last resort move. Walk through a door and "BOO" there is the BG type of application.

 

[loki09789]

I would use that as a last resort.

Come on Tom! We have known each other long enough to know that I am not implying risking an accidental discharge or wasting my firearm away as a bludgeoning tool.

 

[Tgace]

Our MP5's have center punches above the muzzles for window breaking.....ouch

 

[Tgace]

Come on Tom! We have known each other long enough to know that I am not implying risking an accidental discharge or wasting my firearm away as a bludgeoning tool.

I thought you knew more about firearms than to risk a malfunction with your primary weapon....close range non-shooting encounters...thats what the non-gun hand is for.

 

[MJS]

"Seems to me that the majority of people who shoot, only do so under no stress. You're LEO and military are in a different category due to the nature of the job. However, if someone was looking to use the gun as a SD weapon, IMO, having some stress is a good thing."

Most, if not all of the people I know who shoot regularly use stress/scenario training to prep for their chosen shooting venue. I would say that it is the same as the 'pressure' drills of FMA/MA training like sparring and the like. You have to simulate - within safety measures - the type of application you are expecting to honestly be confident that you could be effective. Regardless of weapon or empty hand tools, training principles of devoting the right precentage of training to technical skill/tactical/strategic applications are important to the complete and appropriate training at each skill level.

And are all of those people LEO or military?? I'm sure that there are some people (civilians) that go that extra mile, but IMO, I would think that most would be happy with what they get at the range.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I wonder if MJS could offer some knife drills/scenarios that he uses and we could compare or even steal the principles being applied to shooting drills - or even find a way of combining the drills to create a continuum response that incoporates both weapons and tactical goals.

I would think that training with a marker or a knife with something applied to the edge so that it will leave a mark, would probably be the best way to train your knife defense. Working with aliveness and resistance will definately give you a better feeling. More than half of the knife techs. that people are taught today, most likely will NOT work, due to the fact that the "attacker" is not resisting. This does nothing but give the defender a false sense of the tech.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

And are all of those people LEO or military?? I'm sure that there are some people (civilians) that go that extra mile, but IMO, I would think that most would be happy with what they get at the range.

Mike

The 'most of the people I know' types are a combination of military/leo and former, as well as civilians who use range shooting drills that create pressure because of magazine changes/time limits/holster starts and fatigue starts... (push ups or jumping jacks before they even hit the firing point.) Again, I DON"T CARE ABOUT THE REST OF THE SHOOTING WORLD, I know what I do and what others do to prepare for reality shooting. Some are serious civilians and some are not. Push come to shove, if I can get to either weapon equally, I would choose the firearm hands down. As far as training, if you feel that your knife training is good enough to answer all questions, go for it, but I would hate to see what happens when you bring that knife to a gun fight (to state a cliche).

This was not intended to be a comparison between how 'seriously/realistically' shooters train compared to knife fighters. I am sure there are just as many 'enthusiasts' in each area relative to the number of 'real deal' trainers. I don't care what they do, and I am not trying to compare the shooting community to the knife/Martial arts community. If anything, I consider my firearms training as part of my MA training, not separate. I can use things/tactics/drills from each or combine them to create a complete spectrum of training.

As far as the drill you mentioned with markers for knives, I have played that game and it is a great reality check for the uninitiated to realize how easy it is to take a lot of cuts/damage.

If I was to try and find a way to incorporate a firearm into that drill, I would work with a holstered weapon and the goal would be to fight my way with the marker/knife into a good place to draw and fire without endangering myself. Or, use a red gun against a marker/knife each holding the other weapon wrist and work out the problem solving from there.

 

[loki09789]

I thought you knew more about firearms than to risk a malfunction with your primary weapon....close range non-shooting encounters...thats what the non-gun hand is for.

Which is the better practice as far as you are concerned:

1. putting your live hand in FRONT of the muzzle of your own weapon and risking shooting yourself, as well as reducing your retention strength?

or

2. Using steel instead of flesh to strike the face/sternum of a BG to drive them back when you are surprised and maintaining two hand retention strength?

I would guess it comes down to how well you train either one that would create confidence in the practice.

What am I going to Jam my weapon on if I hit the BG in the face... boogers?

 

[Tgace]

It started as a technique for sub-guns, carbines etc. then some smarty pants decided it would be good for handgun too. Problem is that auto slides are spring loaded and move. You have seen the one arm reload technique of snagging a sight post on a belt/pocket to move the slide....think it through.

 

[OULobo]

Push come to shove, if I can get to either weapon equally, I would choose the firearm hands down. As far as training, if you feel that your knife training is good enough to answer all questions, go for it, but I would hate to see what happens when you bring that knife to a gun fight (to state a cliche).

It all depends on the distance. I would pick the knife if the reange was close enough. Guns are all about range. If you have distance, then the choice is obvious, but close quarters, gun lose much of their effectiness.

This was not intended to be a comparison between how 'seriously/realistically' shooters train compared to knife fighters. I am sure there are just as many 'enthusiasts' in each area relative to the number of 'real deal' trainers. I don't care what they do, and I am not trying to compare the shooting community to the knife/Martial arts community. If anything, I consider my firearms training as part of my MA training, not separate. I can use things/tactics/drills from each or combine them to create a complete spectrum of training.)

Sounds smart. That's what I try to do.

As far as the drill you mentioned with markers for knives, I have played that game and it is a great reality check for the uninitiated to realize how easy it is to take a lot of cuts/damage.

I think I put this in a different thread somewhere, but we used to train with steel butter knives. The knives were metal so you still got the realistic flash, cold feel, slippery handle and distinctive "ting" during collisions, but the blades were dull serrations. The blades were great because they could run across flesh at high speeds and only leave a red mark and some pain, almost never any blood. This allowed us to get a tinge of pain and left a mark to identify. The best part was that the knives were so cheap we could replace them easily and so durable that we never had to.

If I was to try and find a way to incorporate a firearm into that drill, I would work with a holstered weapon and the goal would be to fight my way with the marker/knife into a good place to draw and fire without endangering myself. Or, use a red gun against a marker/knife each holding the other weapon wrist and work out the problem solving from there.

That sounds like it's worth a try.

 

[OULobo]

It started as a technique for sub-guns, carbines etc. then some smarty pants decided it would be good for handgun too. Problem is that auto slides are spring loaded and move. You have seen the one arm reload technique of snagging a sight post on a belt/pocket to move the slide....think it through.

I'd love to check that one armed reload out.

 

[Tgace]

photo of wounded shooter reload/malfunction clearing