Pressure Points (Kyosho?Kyoto?Kyoso?)

[marlon]

-If he means an alive RESISTING opponent then I'm good. But when is kata practiced with resistance?

Kata should always have a component of practice that includes a partner. A good uke will "up" the level of resistence as you prasctice in order to help you improve. Otherwise there is no kata...only empy movement

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[Hand Sword]

Agreed, that will help more than solo training. But, be careful. A partner adding resistance isn't the same as for real. Plus they have a tendency to "go with the flow". Meaning, for example, subconsiously going in the direction of that wrist lock, or starting to fall, just before that sweep etc.. We have all experienced that in training. No one wants to get hurt, or hurt their partner.

 

[D.Cobb]

very true, at my dojo, sensei always emphasises strike points. even without PP's if if you want uke's balance behind them, you are not going to punch to the stomach causing them to lean forward. to use PP's effectively u must train using them, see how uke reacts and use that to your advantage if needed. btw there is an intense PP at the base of the neck (the soft dent in the middle) which if u push in and down with some force hurts like mad. be careful and enjoy

If you think that hurts, try pushing in and down to one side. Here you will find a whole new world of pain

--Dave

 

[Hand Sword]

If you think that hurts, try pushing in and down to one side. Here you will find a whole new world of pain

--Dave

You'll find an even more painful world, trying to pull that off on a cold snowy day, we're your both dressed warmly, cushioning your bodies, and sliding around on snow and ice.

 

[D.Cobb]

The fact that your posture having to be correct is everything shows it's weakness in terms of reality. Nothing is everything due to the fact that nothing is or remains constant. What comes the closest to everything is BALANCE. If you are off balance everything else: posture, strikes, etc.. goes to crap. (It applies mentally, and spiritually as well). This is your flaw. For real, your attacker decides where, when, and how the event will go down. You will be caught off balance, no matter how hard you train!

Hang on, if you're off balance, it means your posture is wrong. Without posture, you can't have balance.

Also consider another reality: Hardly anything ever goes the way you train for-- too many variables, none or very little of which you'll have control over, also those variables keep changing, second to second.

Which is why you train to either maintain, or regain posture!!

There's also a person's physiological responses. They are different for each person, add to it drugs and alcohol, the chances of pulling PP's off decreases.

These things should have NO effect on your posture. as to the effectiveness of PPs, why not ask certain members of this board who work as LEOs and use PPs everyday.

There are correct angles etc.. involoved in using them, correct posture or not. Bad idea to get into a fixated mind set of targeting those little dots on the body. People get ears ripped off, groins destroyed, noses broke etc.. and keep fighting. Those are big areas to hit, and they are difficult to get to for real by themselves.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Let me say this, If you maintain correct and functional posture, then the angles and directions of each point will be presented to you, by the reaction to your strikes by your opponent.
It's not about fixating on points, it's about targeting. And you are targeting areas that are as big as an eye.
All of those things cause pain. Whilst pain can be a good thing, if your technique relies on pain to succeed, then it is doomed to fail. PPs do not neccessarily cause pain, what they do cause is anatomical weakness in areas that can and do have an effect on the postural integrity of your opponent, there by negating his ability to continue fighting effectively.
Can you punch someone in the nose or on the chin or smack them in the ear? If you can then you can target nerve points.

For the sake of reality, keep it simple and straight forward!

How simple do you want it? Hit nerve points effectively and people fall down. The most important part of hitting nerve points effectively is to maintain postural integrity.

Everyone be safe!

That is another subject entirely.

--Dave

 

[Hand Sword]

Hang on, if you're off balance, it means your posture is wrong. Without posture, you can't have balance.



Which is why you train to either maintain, or regain posture!!



These things should have NO effect on your posture. as to the effectiveness of PPs, why not ask certain members of this board who work as LEOs and use PPs everyday.



I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Let me say this, If you maintain correct and functional posture, then the angles and directions of each point will be presented to you, by the reaction to your strikes by your opponent.
It's not about fixating on points, it's about targeting. And you are targeting areas that are as big as an eye.
All of those things cause pain. Whilst pain can be a good thing, if your technique relies on pain to succeed, then it is doomed to fail. PPs do not neccessarily cause pain, what they do cause is anatomical weakness in areas that can and do have an effect on the postural integrity of your opponent, there by negating his ability to continue fighting effectively.
Can you punch someone in the nose or on the chin or smack them in the ear? If you can then you can target nerve points.



How simple do you want it? Hit nerve points effectively and people fall down. The most important part of hitting nerve points effectively is to maintain postural integrity.



That is another subject entirely.

--Dave

Sorry to disagree, but, to move into that correct posture, you must first be in balance. If your stumbling, you can forget about settling. If you're caught off balance--and you will be, good luck trying to regain it. Much easier said than done! If you are off balance, you can't target effectively.

Security and LEO's while greatly appreciated have no say really. They have numbers to help them, guns, pepper spray, and night sticks. Their scenarios are responding to an attack against another, easily putting them into position to use PP's.

Your right about the correct posture leading to everything else, but that is the real key, isn't it? For real, your opponent Decides where, when, and how, so you will be off balance. You can only respond for real, not act (unless you picked the fight), so you're already a step behind, or at a disadvantage.

Can you hit araes-- Yes! Is it easy, even for the big targets, let alone little eyes, which may be covered by a thick jacket and sweater, NO!

Sorry again, but eventually pain is involved. You have to hurt your attacker to get them to stop, or they keep fighting.

I wish it were that simple.

 

[Hand Sword]

I understand what you are saying, as Ive said, I have experience in this. Your posture is the key, agreed. However, that's also the weakness. You can't settle into, and maintain that, when you're caught off, by an attacker. Enviromental factors (not present in dojo's) might not allow it either. It's just not that simple.

 

[D.Cobb]

Can you explain the difference to us?

Jeff

Well basically, accu points are for healing purposes, and the ones we use for combat are for hurting. In some cases their locations differ by only millimetres. The methods of activation are different. And I guess more importantly, the points taught in "Kyusho" classes are all located on nerves. Whereas some of the points you'll find on accu charts, and taught in DimMak as well, do not effect nerves but interfere in some way with other bodily functions.

It is quite complex, and I am still very much a beginner when it comes to explaining in detail, but the more in depth studies of pressure points for combat, also take into account the 3 circulatory systems. They being Blood, Lymph, and Bio Energy/Chi.

Hope this helps
--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

Sorry to disagree, but, to move into that correct posture, you must first be in balance. If your stumbling, you can forget about settling. If you're caught off balance--and you will be, good luck trying to regain it. Much easier said than done! If you are off balance, you can't target effectively.

Security and LEO's while greatly appreciated have no say really. They have numbers to help them, guns, pepper spray, and night sticks. Their scenarios are responding to an attack against another, easily putting them into position to use PP's.

Your right about the correct posture leading to everything else, but that is the real key, isn't it? For real, your opponent Decides where, when, and how, so you will be off balance. You can only respond for real, not act (unless you picked the fight), so you're already a step behind, or at a disadvantage.

Can you hit araes-- Yes! Is it easy, even for the big targets, let alone little eyes, which may be covered by a thick jacket and sweater, NO!

Sorry again, but eventually pain is involved. You have to hurt your attacker to get them to stop, or they keep fighting.

I wish it were that simple.

Do you train to win?

If you take this attitude with you into the street, I have two words for you....

YOU LOSE!!

--Dave

 

[DavidCC]

I understand what you are saying, as Ive said, I have experience in this. Your posture is the key, agreed. However, that's also the weakness. You can't settle into, and maintain that, when you're caught off, by an attacker. Enviromental factors (not present in dojo's) might not allow it either. It's just not that simple.

You may be knocked off balance but it is possible to regain it. Maintain your composure, stabilize your balance - important parts of kempo.

Your attacker's balance and posture is also very important.

 

[DavidCC]

-If he means an alive RESISTING opponent then I'm good. But when is kata practiced with resistance?

The study of kata is not limited to just perfroming the kata. You take a piece of the kata, perhaps it is re-aranged or in their exactly, and practice these movements as a self-defense technique. The most obvious, exact pieces are called "bunkai" although this term is usaully also applied by people who don;t speak Japanese to mean any breakdwon of a kata.

So it is possible to practice the bunkai against fully resistant attackers. look at many of the threads started by upnorthkyosa, where he shows the kata and the some breakdowns.

 

[Hand Sword]

Do you train to win?

If you take this attitude with you into the street, I have two words for you....

YOU LOSE!!

--Dave

Do you, or have you ever had real fights outside of training?

If not, and you beleive it's easy, you'll be in for a shocker!

(also, losing is a part of reality, I 've gotten the better, and been on the other end, nothing wrong with that.)

 

[Hand Sword]

You may be knocked off balance but it is possible to regain it. Maintain your composure, stabilize your balance - important parts of kempo.

Your attacker's balance and posture is also very important.

I agree with that, and have said so already. All I said was it's not that easy for real, against an attacker, as they have caught you off balance, and are on top of you before you can respond. You are one step behind them, reacting to their action. (unless you picked the fight)

 

[Hand Sword]

Let's be realistic here. Anyone can settle and do their thing easily when they see it coming, or know it's coming. We're also all good in the dojo, or wherever we train. But, let's not kid ourselves, or anyone who is just reading our posts. Reality isn't Theories! It is what it is! We don't live in Candy Land. I agree training hard is almost all we have to rely on, and I do agree with training hard. But, reality almost never goes the way you train.

 

[D.Cobb]

Do you, or have you ever had real fights outside of training?

To my shame, yes. I grew up with a big mouth and an even bigger attitude.

If not, and you beleive it's easy, you'll be in for a shocker!

Isn't that why we do reality training?

(also, losing is a part of reality, I 've gotten the better, and been on the other end, nothing wrong with that.)

Hmm, I hope you're not saying, "There's nothing wrong with losing."
The only time that applies is in sparring and tournaments. And the wrong gets wronger(hey I invented a word?!?), if the bad guy is armed.

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

I agree with that, and have said so already. All I said was it's not that easy for real, against an attacker, as they have caught you off balance, and are on top of you before you can respond. You are one step behind them, reacting to their action. (unless you picked the fight)

That's why you need to respond, not react. Action beats reaction every time, therefore we need to take the initiative from our attacker. So that he is the one reacting. That's why you train like it's real. So, when it is real, you'll do it like you trained.

--Dave

 

[Hand Sword]

To my shame, yes. I grew up with a big mouth and an even bigger attitude.



Isn't that why we do reality training?



Hmm, I hope you're not saying, "There's nothing wrong with losing."
The only time that applies is in sparring and tournaments. And the wrong gets wronger(hey I invented a word?!?), if the bad guy is armed.

--Dave

I hear ya there! Being the smallest didn't help either! lol!

Yes, I train the same way. Just trying to point out that it's still not the same. (but, it's all we have)
The losing I referred to was in regular fights, back in the day. If they are armed, Yeah! Don't lose!

 

[Hand Sword]

That's why you need to respond, not react. Action beats reaction every time, therefore we need to take the initiative from our attacker. So that he is the one reacting. That's why you train like it's real. So, when it is real, you'll do it like you trained.

--Dave

A response is a reaction. You can only take the initiative if you were aware in ther first place. You won't be for real! They pick where, when and how. Again, training is close, but, not the same.

 

[D.Cobb]

Let's be realistic here. Anyone can settle and do their thing easily when they see it coming, or know it's coming. We're also all good in the dojo, or wherever we train. But, let's not kid ourselves, or anyone who is just reading our posts. Reality isn't Theories! It is what it is! We don't live in Candy Land. I agree training hard is almost all we have to rely on, and I do agree with training hard. But, reality almost never goes the way you train.

Handsword, I am wondering, what style do you train in? Is this negative outlook a part of that style, or is that just your interpretation?
If I had your attitude to my own ability, I would buy a gun and sit in my lounge room with the gun pointed at the door, ready to deal with whoever or what ever came through it.

--Dave

 

[Hand Sword]

Is the "training is everything" mindset part of your style? If so, I suggest you quit, and get into to something that is real, like bouncing at a club or something. At least mine comes from a lot of fighting experience. You will be caught, when it's for real. You' re not always able to be aware.

If I added your mindset, I would get killed.