Prayer -- split from Catholic rant

[yorkshirelad]

Sorry I've missed out on the anger.

To restate in a simpler manner; in my opinion, anything which the Catholic Church does which affects people outside the Church are fair targets of criticism. I think I said that in my initial post; somehow that got ignored. As I said, I have no beef with anyone, Catholic or not, who has comments to make about the bad things which Catholic clergy have done and are accused of covering up. My ire was directed at those who are not Catholic, yet feel compelled to criticize the dogma of the Catholic Church, and worse, who get it wrong, apparently intentionally, and then hold it up to public ridicule.

With regard to the comments that Catholics feel privileged to comment on public issues such as abortion and other political issues, I have no apology to make. As a US citizen and a Catholic, I have exactly as much right to criticize our abortion policy as anyone of any faith or no faith at all does. I am not less a citizen because I am Catholic. My Catholicism does not give me the right to criticize; my citizenship does.

I agree that the Catholic Church has much to answer for; I am as disappointed and angry with the Church over recent issues as anyone. However, I have no issue with those who are not Catholic and who are as angry as I am over those crimes.

However, for non-Catholics to criticize the dogma of the church, especially dogma they don't understand and misreport, makes me ticked off. Thus, my rant.

Catholics do not pray to Mary, we don't engage in idolotry, we don't believe the Pope is infallible, and we don't confess to iPod applications. If anyone thinks we do, fine. If they write that in a newspaper article, then not fine. I got a problem with that. Do you have a problem with me having a problem with that?

Of course you pray to Mary! You also pray to saints. You pray for her to pray for you. In other words, you ask a dead woman (necromancy) to intervene and pray to God on your behalf. It makes sense though. Catholicism is basically messianic paganism, so I suppose you need a female godhead.Btw, my citizenship also gives me the right to speak out about Catholicism. God knows, I spend enough time criticizing Islam, Catholicism needs to take its lick also.Catholics in general need to be held accountable also. Even after all the nonsense they keep giving their tithes to the sick and twisted people at the head of the organisation.If they want to practise Roman rites, they can go to Eastern Orthodox churches, Episcopal churches or Anglican churches. There is a huge choice.I feel sorry for the poor sods of old, especially in Ireland who had to tow the churches line and lived miserable lives because of it. The church preached piety and morals that were almost impossible to follow, while at the same time splitting up families and torturing kids in their orphanages. Pregnant teenage girls were put in homes and treated like vermin. Then their children were pulled from their arms and never seen again. Then it was found that innocent children had been raped by the thousands by ordained priests. When the church found out they simply relocated these vile specimens to allow them to continue their escapades. Thousands more children were tortured and raped in schools by Christian brother scumbags, who were obviously frustrated by their unnatural lifestyles, so like any other bullies, decided to pick on the weak and vunerable kids they were charged to care for.I am sick of being told that I should show a distinction between the Organisation and the faithful. Why should I? People can choose to follow evildoers or not. The majority of the catholic faithful have chosen to allow the evil that is the Catholic church to continue.I will make a distinction between the Jesus of the gospels and the catholic hierarchy however. The two are almost diametrically opposed.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Of course you pray to Mary! You also pray to saints. You pray for her to pray for you. In other words, you ask a dead woman (necromancy) to intervene and pray to God on your behalf. It makes sense though. Catholicism is basically messianic paganism, so I suppose you need a female godhead.Btw, my citizenship also gives me the right to speak out about Catholicism. God knows, I spend enough time criticizing Islam, Catholicism needs to take its lick also.Catholics in general need to be held accountable also. Even after all the nonsense they keep giving their tithes to the sick and twisted people at the head of the organisation.If they want to practise Roman rites, they can go to Eastern Orthodox churches, Episcopal churches or Anglican churches. There is a huge choice.I feel sorry for the poor sods of old, especially in Ireland who had to tow the churches line and lived miserable lives because of it. The church preached piety and morals that were almost impossible to follow, while at the same time splitting up families and torturing kids in their orphanages. Pregnant teenage girls were put in homes and treated like vermin. Then their children were pulled from their arms and never seen again. Then it was found that innocent children had been raped by the thousands by ordained priests. When the church found out they simply relocated these vile specimens to allow them to continue their escapades. Thousands more children were tortured and raped in schools by Christian brother scumbags, who were obviously frustrated by their unnatural lifestyles, so like any other bullies, decided to pick on the weak and vunerable kids they were charged to care for.I am sick of being told that I should show a distinction between the Organisation and the faithful. Why should I? People can choose to follow evildoers or not. The majority of the catholic faithful have chosen to allow the evil that is the Catholic church to continue.I will make a distinction between the Jesus of the gospels and the catholic hierarchy however. The two are almost diametrically opposed.

It's a shame you haven't read anything I've said. Your hatred is ugly and repugnant to me. We are done talking.

 

[yorkshirelad]

It's a shame you haven't read anything I've said. Your hatred is ugly and repugnant to me. We are done talking.

You told me that Catholics pray to Mary. You do! You also told me that Catholics don't commit idolatry. You do! The statue of St. Peter in St. Peter's square was originally a statue of Jupiter. The statue's foot had been kissed so often by the faithful that it had to be replaced. Idolatry to the max.

i love it that you have opinions about so many things, but want non Catholics to shut up about Catholicism. Ye, the Ipod thing is a little silly and perhaps wrong, but it's no where nearly as wrong as catholicism, a religion that has allowed the suffering of legions.

By the way Catholicism is repugnant to me, we're done!

 

[jks9199]

Of course you pray to Mary! You also pray to saints. You pray for her to pray for you. In other words, you ask a dead woman (necromancy) to intervene and pray to God on your behalf. It makes sense though. Catholicism is basically messianic paganism, so I suppose you need a female godhead.Btw, my citizenship also gives me the right to speak out about Catholicism. God knows, I spend enough time criticizing Islam, Catholicism needs to take its lick also.Catholics in general need to be held accountable also. Even after all the nonsense they keep giving their tithes to the sick and twisted people at the head of the organisation.If they want to practise Roman rites, they can go to Eastern Orthodox churches, Episcopal churches or Anglican churches. There is a huge choice.I feel sorry for the poor sods of old, especially in Ireland who had to tow the churches line and lived miserable lives because of it. The church preached piety and morals that were almost impossible to follow, while at the same time splitting up families and torturing kids in their orphanages. Pregnant teenage girls were put in homes and treated like vermin. Then their children were pulled from their arms and never seen again. Then it was found that innocent children had been raped by the thousands by ordained priests. When the church found out they simply relocated these vile specimens to allow them to continue their escapades. Thousands more children were tortured and raped in schools by Christian brother scumbags, who were obviously frustrated by their unnatural lifestyles, so like any other bullies, decided to pick on the weak and vunerable kids they were charged to care for.I am sick of being told that I should show a distinction between the Organisation and the faithful. Why should I? People can choose to follow evildoers or not. The majority of the catholic faithful have chosen to allow the evil that is the Catholic church to continue.I will make a distinction between the Jesus of the gospels and the catholic hierarchy however. The two are almost diametrically opposed.

You're absolutely welcome to disagree with the Church or even to dislike or hate the Church. You're free to state your opinions about the Church, too.

But maybe, just maybe, you can do so with a little bit of basic courtesy and respect? I freely admit that I am biased on this; I am a practicing Catholic. Sure, there is plenty of things the Church has done wrong over the years -- but it's done more than a little good, too. Maybe sometimes in spite of itself...

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger is now properly addressed as Pope Benedict XVI; insisting on calling him "Ratzinger" is akin to refusing to address a woman who has chosen to take her husband's surname by her maiden name, or refusing to address Barrack Obama as Mr. President.

Regarding "praying" to Mary. Yes, I will agree that we address prayers to Mary and to the Communion of Saints. This is not the same as praying to God, in any of His three Persons. We don't believe that any saint can, on their own or through their own efforts, do anything any more than we can ourselves. Not even Mary. But we do ask them to intercede on our behalf; to add their efforts to our own. Miracles are not accomplished by the saint, but through their intercession.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Regarding "praying" to Mary. Yes, I will agree that we address prayers to Mary and to the Communion of Saints. This is not the same as praying to God, in any of His three Persons. We don't believe that any saint can, on their own or through their own efforts, do anything any more than we can ourselves. Not even Mary. But we do ask them to intercede on our behalf; to add their efforts to our own. Miracles are not accomplished by the saint, but through their intercession.

So you practise necromancy! Btw, I would not refer to Kim Jung Ill as dear leader or the king of saudi Arabia as Your Majesty either, Why? Because i don't respect them.I definately don't respect a man who turned a blind eye to sexual abuse. A man whose office he was in command of, stopped the prosecution of Father (what an abhorrant title) laurence Murphy who, in 1996 admitted to sexually abusing over 200 boys at a school for the deaf.A man who was voted into office partially by the repugnant Cardinal Law who was responsible for the immeasurable suffering of children in the US. You're lucky I'm refering to him as Ratzinger. There are more apt words for the guy.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Regarding "praying" to Mary. Yes, I will agree that we address prayers to Mary and to the Communion of Saints. This is not the same as praying to God, in any of His three Persons. We don't believe that any saint can, on their own or through their own efforts, do anything any more than we can ourselves. Not even Mary. But we do ask them to intercede on our behalf; to add their efforts to our own. Miracles are not accomplished by the saint, but through their intercession.

If you keep repeating your prayers and ask saints to intercede on your behalf, isn't that the same as the little kid who keeps nagging, asking his big brother to team up?

Is the success of a prayer influenced by the sheer volume of prayer you send up and whom you manage to get behind your cause? And what about people who pray for something that goes against your prayer? Most prayers win?

And to quote Carlin: what about the divine plan. Should God change it just because you ask? If you are truly faithful, why ask things of God instead of having faith that he will do the right thing?

 

[elder999]

So you practise necromancy!.

Strictly speaking, necromancy would be the summoning of the spirits of the dead for fortune-telling.

 

[Blade96]

i agree with yorkshirelad, however I would have said it nicer than that, because Bill M and JKS are nice people and i like them.

 

[punisher73]

Strictly speaking, necromancy would be the summoning of the spirits of the dead for fortune-telling.

Beat me to it, gotta love a misuse of the term to berate something. LOL

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Strictly speaking, necromancy would be the summoning of the spirits of the dead for fortune-telling.

We haven't gotten to the 'cannibalism' accusation yet; wait for it, I'm sure it will be along shortly. Raw, naked, hatred like this finds no boundaries of decorum, decency, or intellectual honesty.

 

[Blade96]

those homes btw where they put so called fallen women and teenage pregnant mothers and stuff and the abuse that went on I learned they arent even specifically Irish or specifically Catholic in origin. Protestants had them too. So it would be wrong to blame all of that on the catholics.

 

[punisher73]

If you keep repeating your prayers and ask saints to intercede on your behalf, isn't that the same as the little kid who keeps nagging, asking his big brother to team up?

Is the success of a prayer influenced by the sheer volume of prayer you send up and whom you manage to get behind your cause? And what about people who pray for something that goes against your prayer? Most prayers win?

And to quote Carlin: what about the divine plan. Should God change it just because you ask? If you are truly faithful, why ask things of God instead of having faith that he will do the right thing?

Depending on how you pray and how you understand prayer, you are correct. Many Christians pray as if God were a genie in a bottle. They keep asking over and over to show their faith and sometimes try to negotiate a deal with God over the request.

Is this the purpose of it? Nope, prayer should be a self-reflection before God to better understand ourselves (God already knows our hearts/minds, God doesn't need us to tell those things). Read the Psalms, those are David's prayers and thoughts to God and you will see the range of emotion in them. He was honest with God, which is what God wants.

The closer we become to God and God's will, the more our prayers are answered. Why? Not because we are "more holy" than others (which is a common misconception for why prayers are answered), but because when we are more in line with God's will, we only ask for those things that are in his will. True prayer should be to have God give you the strength and wisdom to become the change you want to see (stealing a line from Ghandi) and the courage and hope to handle those things which you can't change.

If you only approach God as a "wish granter", than like George Carlin says, you might as well pray to the sun and still get about a 50/50 average.

 

[yorkshirelad]

We haven't gotten to the 'cannibalism' accusation yet; wait for it, I'm sure it will be along shortly. Raw, naked, hatred like this finds no boundaries of decorum, decency, or intellectual honesty.

You won't get accused of cannibalism, because you can't seriously believe that you are eating the flesh or drinking the blood of Christ. That would be silly!

 

[yorkshirelad]

Strictly speaking, necromancy would be the summoning of the spirits of the dead for fortune-telling.

I stand corrected! But isn't communication with the dead prohibited by God in the old testament?

 

[yorkshirelad]

those homes btw where they put so called fallen women and teenage pregnant mothers and stuff and the abuse that went on I learned they arent even specifically Irish or specifically Catholic in origin. Protestants had them too. So it would be wrong to blame all of that on the catholics.

Only the homes in Ireland were specifically Catholic and what wnet on in those Catholic homes was tantamount to torture. It doesn't matter though, because other organizations did it, we'll let it slide shall we. Let's let 9/11 slide also because catholic terrorists attacked Canary Wharf.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Wow, where to begin with this post? I am afraid that, despite you having been raised a Catholic you seem to know very little about its doctrine or history. Despite your obvious hatred of the Church I'll do my best to answer some of the accusations you level against her.

Of course you pray to Mary! You also pray to saints. You pray for her to pray for you. In other words, you ask a dead woman (necromancy) to intervene and pray to God on your behalf.

I pray to Mary. Daily. And other saints. But in no way do I pray to a dead woman, or to anyone who is dead. The saints are in some sense more alive than you or I because they have overcome death.

The saints in heaven are alive in Christ and are the great cloud of witnesses mentioned in Hebrews 12:1 and are the souls under the altar in heaven that cry out to God for judgement in Revelation 6:9-10. Likewise, I pray to the angels because they are constantly presenting the prayers of the faithful before the throne of God in Revelation 8:3-4. Those are all things that are liturgical functions being carried out in heaven since our earthly worship is a participation in the liturgical celebration of the saints and angels in heaven.

It makes sense though. Catholicism is basically messianic paganism, so I suppose you need a female godhead.

Actually there is no evidence whatsoever that Catholicism is "messianic paganism." That some of the Church's practices very superficially resemble pagan practices isn't exactly a conundrum given that human nature is what it is. There are certain things all religions do because of the inherent religiosity of man. You might as well say prayer is a form of paganism because pagans pray.

But, as for the scurrilous claim that Mary is viewed as somesort of female godhead, that is, to put it in a far more charitable way than such a claim deserve, false. There was actually a first century heresy which arose out of Arabia from the Collyridian sect that claimed Mary was divine. This movement was immediately condemned by the Church for the blasphemy that it is. You can't have a condemnation of this belief and then still accuse the Church of it if you want to be honest.

Btw, my citizenship also gives me the right to speak out about Catholicism. God knows, I spend enough time criticizing Islam, Catholicism needs to take its lick also.

Sure. Just please be sure you're actually critisizing Catholicism and not someone else's take on what the Church teaches. Also note, too, that there is a difference between critisizing Catholic doctrine and critisizing Catholics. In other words, your critique of Catholic teaching is quite separate from the critique of any moral failing of any particular Catholic (be it Pope, bishop, priest or layman).

If you actually want to familiarize yourself with the Church's doctrine I highly suggest getting a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is available in most bookstore for a very reasonable price (last time I bought a copy it was $8.99, I believe). You can also access it online at http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Catholics in general need to be held accountable also. Even after all the nonsense they keep giving their tithes to the sick and twisted people at the head of the organisation.

Well, it depends on what you mean by "held accountable." For our faithfulness to the Church? No, not really. For our moral failings (and by this I mean failing to keep the Commandments), certainly.

If they want to practise Roman rites, they can go to Eastern Orthodox churches, Episcopal churches or Anglican churches. There is a huge choice.

Except in those instances doing so would put one's salvation in jeopardy if doing so was done knowing that the Church was founded by Jesus as the normal means of salvation. Why would I ever want to leave the confines of the Church that Christ founded with Peter as its visible head? They could sooner get me out with blasting caps than I would leave. No, they are, I am sad to say, stuck with me.

The Church is like a net thrown into the sea which brings forth every kind of fish. When the net is brought to shore the bad fish will be thrown away while the good fish are kept. If you're looking for a Church composed of non-sinners you will be disappointed until we all (hopefully) meet on the other side of the eschaton.

I feel sorry for the poor sods of old, especially in Ireland who had to tow the churches line and lived miserable lives because of it. The church preached piety and morals that were almost impossible to follow, while at the same time splitting up families and torturing kids in their orphanages. Pregnant teenage girls were put in homes and treated like vermin. Then their children were pulled from their arms and never seen again. Then it was found that innocent children had been raped by the thousands by ordained priests. When the church found out they simply relocated these vile specimens to allow them to continue their escapades. Thousands more children were tortured and raped in schools by Christian brother scumbags, who were obviously frustrated by their unnatural lifestyles, so like any other bullies, decided to pick on the weak and vunerable kids they were charged to care for.

Right and the Church hasn't been responsible for any goof throughout her history.

Look, I am all for pointing out the sins of the faithful when they need to be pointed out. In fact, I'm all for holding the Church's leaders to a higher standard than we hold other people. I mean, seriously, was anyone really outraged when Bill Clinton got caught using a White House intern as a humidor? No, they weren't. Not really. Because by then we had no illusions about the kind of man he was. Nor did he claim to be morally upright, nor did he preach a message where morality was a central part of his message. But the bishops and priests who were responsible for the scandal did. It would be better for them to have had a millstone placed about their necks and have been cast into the sea than to have done what they did. It would have been better.

I am sick of being told that I should show a distinction between the Organisation and the faithful. Why should I?

Because the little old lady who goes to daily Mass and prays her rosary didn't have anything to do with the priest who engaged in homosexual sex with teen boys. It's a prett basic distinction, really. It's the same kind of distinction used when people say they don't like the government of a particular country but bear the general citizenry no ill will.

People can choose to follow evildoers or not. The majority of the catholic faithful have chosen to allow the evil that is the Catholic church to continue.

In the sense that everyone besides Jesus and Mary sin, yes that's true. We're all guilty of moral failures. The fact is, however, that the Church has actually had several popes in the last century who had an amazingly high level of personal holiness.

I will make a distinction between the Jesus of the gospels and the catholic hierarchy however. The two are almost diametrically opposed.

Well, in their behavior certainly. I mean, I can't remember the last time I saw a pope whipping people, calling them broods or vipers, or that kind of thing. But their message regarding salvation is identical, even if it's preached using different idioms.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

You told me that Catholics pray to Mary. You do! You also told me that Catholics don't commit idolatry. You do! The statue of St. Peter in St. Peter's square was originally a statue of Jupiter. The statue's foot had been kissed so often by the faithful that it had to be replaced. Idolatry to the max.

I'd be interested in seeing any sort of actual evidence for the claim about the statue being originally of Jupiter. It would be an amazing hostorical find if that were the case!

It would be irrelevant to current (or even past) Catholic practices, of course, since the veneration expressed by the kiss on the foot is directed to St. Peter, not Jupiter.

I also thought the foot hadn't been replace. I hope it hasn't been. I think it's freaking awesome that it's been worn down so much by people showing their love for the head of the Apostles!

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

You won't get accused of cannibalism, because you can't seriously believe that you are eating the flesh or drinking the blood of Christ. That would be silly!

I absolutely believe this. Without equivocation. I believe it more than I believe you're a real person sitting at another computer and not some computer program or a room full of monkeys typing randomly.

But that still doesn't make it cannabilism I am sure since you were raised Catholic you know why that is, too, so I won't bore you with the answer

Pax,

Chris

 

[Big Don]

No one, just no one hates Catholics the way Ex-Catholics hate Catholics.

 

[yorkshirelad]

The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately 30 A.D. The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the Church that Jesus Christ died for, the Church that was established and built by the Apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus, or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship / adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?

The rest of the article can be viewed here:

http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html

Why am I going to read a chatechism, written by Catholics. I was actually given a copy at my first holy communion. It's in a box somewhere in an attic in England, probably gathering dust alongside Anton Le Vey's Satanic Bible.

Don't get me wrong, I don't only abhor Catholicism. I abhor any religion that has a history of extreme abuse, the adoration of dead people, and has made billions while it's people have suffered. I won't even get into the inquisition.