Practicing different applications

[skribs]

I didn't say holding, I said slow motion under self imposed tension during extension. So, you are working on extension (and also on retarding that extension, which in the case of a side kick works on the bits you use for a hook kick).

You still need to lift your leg up to the side to do a fast side kick too. Doing it slowly helps increase height and accuracy for your fast ones.

But when you do it slower, you use less force for the extension and more force to hold your leg up, even if it's not as much of a difference as holding your leg out.

It can be a useful practice, but it's not building more muscle in that direction.

 

[dvcochran]

It depends how you train it, IMO. If those 3 roundhouse kicks are taught as different kicks, that's a problem for learning. If they are taught as different uses of the same kick, there's not much of an issue. I use my side kick differently when sparring, doing forms, and kicking a heavy bag. It's all the same kick, but I use it differently because there's a change in circumstances (don't want to hurt sparring opponent, no resistance in forms, bag doesn't care). I could teach those as different kicks, making more changes for each context, but that's an unnecessary learning load. Now, I do think if you have a single focus, you're likely to get better at that focus than if your focus is split (I don't care if the side kick in forms looks nice - I'm trying to keep it balanced and close to what I'd use in sparring). But if splitting your focus keeps you more interested in training, then it's probably a net benefit. It's all about the balance.

Very well said gpseymour.

 

[drop bear]

I am pretty sure those guys who can just casually walk their foot up head hight and hold it there and going to also be pretty good kickers.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Very well said gpseymour.

I note that dvcochran disagreed with my post #10. I (perhaps others as well) would be interested in hearing the reasons.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am pretty sure those guys who can just casually walk their foot up head hight and hold it there and going to also be pretty good kickers.

If they've practiced kicks. The flexibility certainly gives them an advantage, and the general athleticism, too. I wouldn't expect the average ballerina (who can do that) to also have great fighting kicks.

 

[drop bear]

If they've practiced kicks. The flexibility certainly gives them an advantage, and the general athleticism, too. I wouldn't expect the average ballerina (who can do that) to also have great fighting kicks.

seems to be a bit of pep generated.

 

[dvcochran]

IMO one of the reasons techniques are structured as they are is they provide a "Center Point" along a spectrum (Or as in a recent article center of a sphere) which make it easier to morph the technique along the spectrum (or to any point inside the sphere radiating outward) as needed for sparring, self defense, breaking, etc. as opposed to practicing a technique which might be at one end of the spectrum (or far from the center f the sphere) and morphing it to a point much further away. (Hope that makes sense).

IMO one of the reasons techniques are structured as they are is they provide a "Center Point" along a spectrum (Or as in a recent article center of a sphere) which make it easier to morph the technique along the spectrum (or to any point inside the sphere radiating outward) as needed for sparring, self defense, breaking, etc. as opposed to practicing a technique which might be at one end of the spectrum (or far from the center f the sphere) and morphing it to a point much further away. (Hope that makes sense).

Mr. Weiss,
The main reason I disagree with your premise is that you are describing the ideal position from which the technique is executed (I think). I can think of a lot of times when I would be off balance or out of position and still make a good strike because of speed, timing, etc... We practice and explain the differences of off balance strikes and how to use them. Nothing worse than watching a student beat themselves up over and over because they feel they are not performing a technique perfectly. Especially in self defense, a poorly executed technique is better that none at all.
No, it doesn't really make sense but sounds really cool. Please explain if I misunderstand.

 

[dvcochran]

Yes and no I think

The body is a master of compensation, performing a kick in ultra slomo uses the same muscles (but as you said, fires differently) and commits the end point.

If your goal then is to do it fast to the same end point (a to b) "nature will find a way" and that way is invariably the easiest.

I consider it much the same as how practicing to balance on one leg in a variety of positions helps improve stability on two legs.

I have had a few adult gymnasts and several adult ballet students in class over the years. Whether it is how the muscles and joints are trained or if they physically change I am not sure. But they all had trouble adapting stance and motion to MA. A few of the people previously in dance said it actually hurt to be in a proper front/back stance. The gymnast especially had difficulty with speed. Incredible strength and balance but it was harder for them to move their legs/arms at speed in attack motions. I think body position was especially engrained on the dancers. Just a totally different kind of flexibility. Don't misunderstand; I am not saying anything negative about gymnastics or ballet, quite the opposite. It was enlightening to try and teach them with their years of different physical experience.

 

[dvcochran]

But when you do it slower, you use less force for the extension and more force to hold your leg up, even if it's not as much of a difference as holding your leg out.

It can be a useful practice, but it's not building more muscle in that direction.

Static exercise is a great muscle builder. Hold a front kick for 60 seconds and your quad will feel it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

seems to be a bit of pep generated.

Quite useful if the opponent is a fly on his nose.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Mr. Weiss,
The main reason I disagree with your premise is that you are describing the ideal position from which the technique is executed (I think). I can think of a lot of times when I would be off balance or out of position and still make a good strike because of speed, timing, etc... We practice and explain the differences of off balance strikes and how to use them. Nothing worse than watching a student beat themselves up over and over because they feel they are not performing a technique perfectly. Especially in self defense, a poorly executed technique is better that none at all.
No, it doesn't really make sense but sounds really cool. Please explain if I misunderstand.

He didn't refer to it as an ideal position, but as a center point. I think that's a good place to teach from on many techniques - show the point farthest from errors in as many directions as possible, so most of the useful variations are reasonably close to the primary taught version.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have had a few adult gymnasts and several adult ballet students in class over the years. Whether it is how the muscles and joints are trained or if they physically change I am not sure. But they all had trouble adapting stance and motion to MA. A few of the people previously in dance said it actually hurt to be in a proper front/back stance. The gymnast especially had difficulty with speed. Incredible strength and balance but it was harder for them to move their legs/arms at speed in attack motions. I think body position was especially engrained on the dancers. Just a totally different kind of flexibility. Don't misunderstand; I am not saying anything negative about gymnastics or ballet, quite the opposite. It was enlightening to try and teach them with their years of different physical experience.

I've not taught any serious dancers or gymnasts that I know of, but I do recall an instructor telling me he preferred for students to have dance experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Static exercise is a great muscle builder. Hold a front kick for 60 seconds and your quad will feel it.

Yes, but is it training the muscles for the kick? Probably not. It's still a useful exercise, but probably not a great one for developing kicking speed, power, or accuracy. I'll bet it contributes something to power, but not as much as other exercises can.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, but is it training the muscles for the kick? Probably not. It's still a useful exercise, but probably not a great one for developing kicking speed, power, or accuracy. I'll bet it contributes something to power, but not as much as other exercises can.

I met a ballet dancer that could kick well. Your generalizations are not accurate.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I met a ballet dancer that could kick well. Your generalizations are not accurate.

It's possible. You have any experience to counter my hypothesis?

(EDIT: Which isn't the same thing as a generalization, by the way.)

 

[Dirty Dog]

I met a ballet dancer that could kick well.

Because they'd been taught to kick well, or because they were a ballet dancer? Nobody has said (that I've seen) that dancers can't kick. What they've said is that the kicking done by dancers is, in many (most?) cases not the sort of kicking that we do in martial arts. I've trained one serious dancer. Out of the box, has kicks were fast, high, controlled, and very pretty.
Didn't hurt at all, but they sure were pretty.
After she learned to throw a TKD kick instead of a dance kick, they hurt.

 

[drop bear]

It's possible. You have any experience to counter my hypothesis?

(EDIT: Which isn't the same thing as a generalization, by the way.)

You just like to argue.

 

[drop bear]

You just like to argue.

That is dirty dog throwing around the multiple dislikes.

Always found that the funniest response when I upset someone.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That is dirty dog throwing around the multiple dislikes.

Always found that the funniest response when I upset someone.

Not the least bit upset. I just disagree with your statement, but don't think it's worth arguing about.

 

[drop bear]

Not the least bit upset. I just disagree with your statement, but don't think it's worth arguing about.

Three in under a minute?