Please advise re: my kid defending himself

[Brian King]

Girlbug2
I think that you have received a lot of good advice and intelligent opinions so I do not see the need to offer my own in regards to the original subject of how to counsel your son, you seem to have good instincts, are not afraid to ask advice and I am sure that you will do well.

That said, I do have a view of the situation that I do not think has been addressed on this thread and think that it might be thought provoking for you especially and others as well.

I do not know you, your husband or your family so what I am saying is pointed broadly and generally and not towards your family or you specifically.

Within the military it is generally accepted that not all warriors are created equally. Within the units and teams there are always a few that will do more than others and do it better. Warriors can be made but born warriors are into a class by themselves. Reading your original post reminded me of this fact and the issues that it brings up. In today’s society true warriors have a difficult path and will face many challenges and it will only get more challenging in the future. Girlbug2 you know your son and you can decide for yourself on what his character is/will be and MOST important how you want to shape it. As difficult as it may be to look at the child today and see the man of tomorrow I believe that you owe it to your son and to yourself to do so. What kind of man do you want your son to be? Do you want a Alan Alda sensitive man, one in touch with his feelings and ready to and willing to cry at the slightest urging, or do you want a man that sees strength as being silent and tough holding his feelings and emotions in check to only be examined in private using the two extremes as examples? In reality most men have a little of both with one or the other being more prominent in their make-up. It is important Girlbug2 to decide that now and get it in your head so that you can help guide the boy into manhood.
What does that mean to you (in my opinion)? It means that if you want him to be the sensitive type you will need to practice and start the influence right away. The male models in his life should reflect that type of male understanding. The sports and hobbies that he participates should build upon the traits that you see as important. This is in my opinion much more important for a young man that tends toward the stereotypical warrior/protector man type due to the stigma that modern society tries to place upon the type. If your son tends toward this type he will need a lot of guidance and patience and understanding. Importantly and why I am writing this post is that you girlbug2 will need much more patience than you can even imagine at this moment. Your boy will do things that you will have no idea of why he chose to do them and he will not be able to articulate why himself. You will have to decide in advance to support him in his decisions and actions even when others will point and blame. He may be a fighter and if so he will fight. There will be consequences of his being willing to stand up and lay his enemies before him. He will get into conflicts and battles and will not always understand or able to articulate why but will only know that it needed to be done and he did it. Those consequences might be his getting kicked off of a team, in trouble at school, and a minimum of good friends in his young life. As a parent of a warrior/protector you will need to come to the conclusion early on that the consequences fair or not (and most will be unfair) be damned his actions are worth it and you will have to help him understand that sometimes the cost of taking a stand must be paid and the benefits may not appear for years and years if ever. As the parent of a warrior/protector you will need to guide him to put his instincts to a higher service otherwise he may find himself fighting merely for the sake of fighting.

The rewards will be few but deep. He will be able to look into the mirror and be ok with what he sees. He will be able to look other men in the eyes and have them value the looking. He will be looked to in time of trouble and will be stronger for it and if lucky and blessed he will find a mate that not only understands but values his abilities and character and able to support him and appreciated and need his support. He will live his nature and make the world a better place for doing so.

Anyway a few thoughts and perhaps a glimpse into the future

Warmest regards
Brian King

 

[sgtmac_46]

I think your son did a fine job of defending himself and protecting the other kid from further injury.

You need to stand up for your kid's rights and the rights of the other kids to be able to attend there and be safe. Yes, accidents happen in a sporting event, but they shouldn't have to worry about being injured from another kid who has violent outbursts.

You had mentioned that it has happened before, I would talk with those parents and get statements from them and get them to commit to talking with the board as well to show that this is an ongoing problem with this other kid.

That leads me to wonder, your son was threatened to be removed from the team if it happened again....why hasn't Jerry been removed already since it keeps happening? This is the part that gets me, the way the laws are, if Jerry is labeled as learning or emotionally disabled and they get someone to show that his behavior was a "manifestation" of it, then he pretty much gets a free pass. I see it all the time here, a kid will assault a teacher and instead of expulsion he/she is allowed to remain in the school because it was just a "manifestation" and they couldn't help it.

As far as Jerry's mother, shame on her and her husband. It is tragic to have a child with mental/emotional problems but instead of covering them up, bring them up and educate people what it means and how to help Jerry out so that everyone can have fun and understand his behavior. All Jerry's parents are doing is setting the stage for their son to be ostracized as he gets older.

I think they're probably afraid of Jerry's mother as she uses his 'special needs' status as a bludgeon with the threat of a 'lawsuit' for 'discrimination' for holding him to the same standards of behavior as everyone else.

 

[Tez3]

It's a pity you don't play rugby over there. I know you think soccer is a gentler game than your American football but here 'soccer' ( football to us lol) is known as a game of gentlemen played by thugs while rugby is a game of thugs played by gentlemen. Rugby is by far the superior game, you can laugh all you want at cricket too but it's invaluable for teaching youngsters how to 'play the game' in life. It's no accident that all our great leaders, warriors and notable people don't play soccer they play rugby and cricket!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sounds to me like the coach is thinking of kicking the wrong kid off the team.

In this litigious society kicking her son off the team is 'safer' than kicking the 'special needs' kid off the team.

 

[Makalakumu]

Short update:

The coach called earlier and told me that the association ruled so far that nobody will be kicked off of the team, but that representatives will be sent to watch this Saturday's game and the practices next week. It is implied that they will be watching for signs of Jerry's behavior to see if he indeed has problems and attacks other kids, but also to see if my son is aggressive. So it isn't settled yet, but next week they may come to a final decision about all this.

Privately the coach said he believes Jerry is a problem that should have been removed before this and that his parents, when registering Jerry, claimed on the form that he was not taking any medications and had no conditions which to the best of their knowledge would affect his ability to be a part of the team. So in other words, is this what they call perjory?

Coach also told me that Jerry's dad is getting really riled up and calling for my son to be kicked off! This is all just too unbelievable for me. How would he feel if his kid was attacked by someone else on the team, would he tell his son he shouldn't defend himself??

To tell you all the truth, I really liked Jerry's mom up until now. She is one of those outgoing charismatic people that becomes instantly popular, she jumped right in and volunteered to be Team Mom and has been doing a great job of it. I was looking forward to getting to know her and the other parents. OTOH I am the quiet shy type who is by my own admission slow to come out of my shell. When Jerry's mom got home from practice today she apparently called the other parents and persuaded some of them to rally with her to get my son off of the team. I can't help but feel that this is escalating as badly as it is because she is popular and well-liked and I'm relatively unknown by the others as of yet. This really should have been a cut and dried "kids will be kids, oh well, we all learned a lesson didn't we" thing, but is now being dragged out. It can only end with one of the boys leaving the team and a lot of hurt feelings on all sides. This kind of thing reminds me why I am not usually a "joiner".

Thanks to all who have replied, I do feel better for having been able to talk about self defense issues with calm and rational people. I will post next week how this all ends up turning out. Hopefully both kids will be on their best behaviors and there won't be any further reason for any self defense, but even so, I hate the way this season is getting off to a start!

Time to play devil's advocate...in a bit.

First, let me explain myself, I am an educator and I've taught some of the hardest children you can imagine. Those kids had hearts of gold, but you wouldn't believe the kinds of problems they ended up in.

I'm going to tone down my criticism to just this one question. How do you know that Jerry has a problem?

I'll be honest with you. I can't tell you how many threads, phone calls, emails, that I've gotten from parents and I know they are trying to defend their child to the death, but...

...the other side always creeps through.

Pardon me for being cynical. George Carlin said that every cynic was a disappointed idealist.

I love it when people prove George wrong...

 

[shesulsa]

How do you know that Jerry has a problem?

Good question. Sounds like this isn't the first time Jerry has acted out. I'm curious how the other children on the team handle the situation?

Pardon me for being cynical. George Carlin said that every cynic was a disappointed idealist.

I love it when people prove George wrong...

Perhaps we incorrectly use "cynic" (a noun) in situations where we probably should use "jaded" (an adjective). Neither attractive in any sense, and as much as I'd like to turn the other cheek, cynicism seems to be the best thing I can throw out there. But I think the more appropriate term to use is "jaded."

As for Carlin, I think most of us are cynical to some degree if his definition stands.

 

[jks9199]

Time to play devil's advocate...in a bit.

First, let me explain myself, I am an educator and I've taught some of the hardest children you can imagine. Those kids had hearts of gold, but you wouldn't believe the kinds of problems they ended up in.

I'm going to tone down my criticism to just this one question. How do you know that Jerry has a problem?

I'll be honest with you. I can't tell you how many threads, phone calls, emails, that I've gotten from parents and I know they are trying to defend their child to the death, but...

...the other side always creeps through.

Pardon me for being cynical. George Carlin said that every cynic was a disappointed idealist.

I love it when people prove George wrong...

I don't care if Jerry is diagnosed or not, or with what. Maybe the only "med" forgotten that morning was his daily vitamin.

Based on what's given -- Jerry ABSOLUTELY had a behavioral problem on that day. It shouldn't have been tolerated. The first meltdown should have been met with an appropriate discipline. A second or subsequent meltdown should have been the clue to Jerry's mother, the coaches, and all the other parents present that the kid didn't belong on the practice field that day.

It's that simple.

The rest of the situation stems from that breakdown in responsibility, in that order.

 

[Guardian]

I'm with Tez, for the most part.

My first problem is with the mother who "forgot" her kid's apparently VERY necessary meds, thereby endangering other kids on the soccer team and creating problems.

My second problem is with the coaches. I can see allowing one meltdown... but after the second, the kid's not able to practice that day. You can't tell me that these practices go on for several hours...

My final problem is with girlbug2. We're talking 6-year olds. Her posts read like she's thinking that she can simply "explain" misbehavior and her son will never have another problem. He did the right thing here; he protected himself from an imminent attack. He needs to be told that. And he does need to be told that some kids misbehave -- but that doesn't mean he should learn to be a punching bag. Personally -- if they told me that my kid (hypothetical; I don't have any) was in danger of being kicked off the team for protecting himself when the coaches and the other kid's parents had failed in their duties to protect him... I'd have someone's head. Had he simply tucked his shoulder and tackled the kid first, would he be facing the same consequences? Or is it only because he left a mark... There are lots of things that could have been done which wouldn't have left cleat marks -- but would have caused much worse injury.

I agree here, the kids mother is at fault for this. She forgot to give him his meds. She should be talked to. Your son did what he had to.

 

[Brian S]

I don't care if Jerry is diagnosed or not, or with what. Maybe the only "med" forgotten that morning was his daily vitamin.

Based on what's given -- Jerry ABSOLUTELY had a behavioral problem on that day. It shouldn't have been tolerated. The first meltdown should have been met with an appropriate discipline. A second or subsequent meltdown should have been the clue to Jerry's mother, the coaches, and all the other parents present that the kid didn't belong on the practice field that day.

It's that simple.

The rest of the situation stems from that breakdown in responsibility, in that order.

ditto

 

[Makalakumu]

Maybe the LEOs will on this board will back me up on this, but, from my experience, when I hear a story that portrays some version of events, I automatically go to skepticism.

In my experience, I have heard stories of the same event where you swear that the tellers of the story aren't even in the same universe, much less sharing the same monent in spacetime.

The way that people interpret events is always suspect.

 

[jks9199]

Absolutely. I don't know that the OP's kid was an angel. However, the overall reaction as described does support that Jerry was being disruptive on that day at that time -- and it doesn't seem like it was the first time.

And, really, what would have been gained by questioning the OP? The question was good, and the points raised have been interesting.

 

[girlbug2]

Hello all,

Here is the update I promised last week:

Saturday's game went very well, the kids played a good game and ended up winning. Jerry and his parents were no shows.

At the two practices this week, Jerry was also absent. One of the other moms mentioned that she is taking over the duties of team mom now and asked for a little help with some of them. In general people seemed to be reluctant to talk about Jerry and his parents, but I gather that they decided to withdraw. I did not enquire further for details, I am just glad this seems to have been resolved at last!

It's strange but I think the other parents are more friendly now. I have talked to a few of them and the general attitude is that we are all pulling together for the sake of helping our kids have a great season. The kids continue to practice and improve and in general seem to be learning about the concept of teamwork. We are now short one player and it seems that everybody's contribution is valued all the more. That alone makes this all worthwhile IMO.

I hope Jerry can eventually find a situation in life where he is able to play sports and do everything else kids want to do. I do feel sorry that he was surely disappointed with everything that happened and having to leave after practicing for weeks. Best wishes to him and his mom.

Thanks also to everybody who took the time to reply and advise me. I have a lot of things to think about and look into regarding the futures of my children and my own role in educating them. Blessings to you all.

 

[girlbug2]

I think the other mothers will know that you are right and hopefully will have the commonsense and guts to say so. One things is for sure, if your son is removed from the team the problem doesn't go away, they still have to cope with a child who attacks the other children and is difficult to cope with!

Yes apparently the other parents must have felt the same way as you because the voting for my son to get removed from the team never materialized. If any of them agreed with Jerry's mom, they have yet to express it openly.

Now that the team has been to two practices with nobody disrupting them with meltdowns and picking fights, it is amazing how smoothly the practices have proceeded! The coach can actually coach now, lol!

 

[girlbug2]

Does your son even like soccer? Sounds to me like he would do well in an MA class.....


It's about the kids, their safety, and their growth as athletes. It's not a popularity contest between parents.

He seems to like almost anything that lets him run around. And after this, I'm certain he'd do well in MA :redface:

You are very right about that, it is not about us parents at all. We sometimes forget that. Thank you.

 

[girlbug2]

Fourth--following on the point about cleats and damaging techniques--As soon as you can find a school that will take him at his age, get him enrolled in Judo.

I am not placing a "value judgment" on the validity of any martial art, but I find Judo very well suited to the kind of things kids will realistically encounter growing up:It's wrestling, and little apes love to wrestle. You learn to fall. Most people never get in a fight, but everyone falls down. It wears them out. It's great exercise and does wonders for balance and coordination. It develops fighting spirit in a good way without risking the same damage that a full contact strking art might at that point in life. . Striking is bad for young unfused bones and can lead to permanent joint problems in ways that grappling just doesn't( I wish I'd known this as a kid so maybe my shoulders wouldn't click nowadays every so often). It works just fine for schoolyard troubles with a lot less chance for accidental injury than kicking some kid in the head. Little Special Jerry is off his meds and decides to take on the world? take him down and slap a kesagatame on him until he calms down or the teachers can break it up--Jerry's not going anywhere but the hold does no actual *damage*.

That is the first time anybody's suggested Judo and you know, I'm ashamed that I hadn't thought of it myself. D'oh! Just the other day my boys were wrestling and I thought about how they took to it so naturally...

Now I will be starting a thread asking if anybody can recommend a good Judo school in the Southern California area.

Mr M, you may have just created a monster

 

[arnisador]

Judo is great for kids; BJJ is good too, but Judo is a natural! And, you can throw a bully at school but may have a harder time explaining why you gouged his eyes.

 

[girlbug2]

Girlbug2
Within the military it is generally accepted that not all warriors are created equally. Within the units and teams there are always a few that will do more than others and do it better. Warriors can be made but born warriors are into a class by themselves. Reading your original post reminded me of this fact and the issues that it brings up. In today’s society true warriors have a difficult path and will face many challenges and it will only get more challenging in the future. Girlbug2 you know your son and you can decide for yourself on what his character is/will be and MOST important how you want to shape it. As difficult as it may be to look at the child today and see the man of tomorrow I believe that you owe it to your son and to yourself to do so. What kind of man do you want your son to be? Do you want a Alan Alda sensitive man, one in touch with his feelings and ready to and willing to cry at the slightest urging, or do you want a man that sees strength as being silent and tough holding his feelings and emotions in check to only be examined in private using the two extremes as examples? In reality most men have a little of both with one or the other being more prominent in their make-up. It is important Girlbug2 to decide that now and get it in your head so that you can help guide the boy into manhood.
What does that mean to you (in my opinion)? It means that if you want him to be the sensitive type you will need to practice and start the influence right away. The male models in his life should reflect that type of male understanding. The sports and hobbies that he participates should build upon the traits that you see as important. This is in my opinion much more important for a young man that tends toward the stereotypical warrior/protector man type due to the stigma that modern society tries to place upon the type. If your son tends toward this type he will need a lot of guidance and patience and understanding. Importantly and why I am writing this post is that you girlbug2 will need much more patience than you can even imagine at this moment. Your boy will do things that you will have no idea of why he chose to do them and he will not be able to articulate why himself. You will have to decide in advance to support him in his decisions and actions even when others will point and blame. He may be a fighter and if so he will fight. There will be consequences of his being willing to stand up and lay his enemies before him. He will get into conflicts and battles and will not always understand or able to articulate why but will only know that it needed to be done and he did it. Those consequences might be his getting kicked off of a team, in trouble at school, and a minimum of good friends in his young life. As a parent of a warrior/protector you will need to come to the conclusion early on that the consequences fair or not (and most will be unfair) be damned his actions are worth it and you will have to help him understand that sometimes the cost of taking a stand must be paid and the benefits may not appear for years and years if ever. As the parent of a warrior/protector you will need to guide him to put his instincts to a higher service otherwise he may find himself fighting merely for the sake of fighting.

The rewards will be few but deep. He will be able to look into the mirror and be ok with what he sees. He will be able to look other men in the eyes and have them value the looking. He will be looked to in time of trouble and will be stronger for it and if lucky and blessed he will find a mate that not only understands but values his abilities and character and able to support him and appreciated and need his support. He will live his nature and make the world a better place for doing so.

Anyway a few thoughts and perhaps a glimpse into the future

Warmest regards
Brian King

Mr. King,

You have raised a lot of interesting points and I have been thinking about them off and on for days now.

Regarding warrior types v sensitive types and thier roles in our modern world, I tend to think our industrial/information age has been slowly phasing out warrior types in favor of the sensitive types. Books like Iron John address this a little. IMO it's a mistake to not appreciate and utilize every form of human potential, including warrior types. Perhaps especially warrior types, because as you hinted, repressing these instincts might only result in creating bullies and other various frustrated warriors in disguise.

It's sad that we even think of them as opposites because truthfully, the most impressive people I have ever known had a good balance of both in their make up. I fell in love with my dh at least partly because he strongly displayed both sensitivity and a protector/warrior side, with no seeming contradiction. It's a mystery that still holds my fascination. My six year old boy is showing these qualities as well even at his early age. Nothing would please me more than to see my kids grow up to be so wholly balanced in this way, just like their father.

As for my guiding these boys, well, that is the million dollar question! Certainly they will get MA training to help them with skill, funneling their energies, and control of their impulses, but beyond that...? More and more it is made obvious that so little of who they really are, at core, has to do with any of my efforts. What I can influence seems to shrink with every passing year. Mostly I believe that I am helpless to do anything but go on instinct and pray for the best outcome. Somewhere in all this, our modeling good behavior and values for them will eventually pay off. So, my ultimate prayer is that I do not fail them in the example I set everyday for How To Be A Grownup.

Thanks for your kind words Mr. King. You have a philospher's spirit as well as a martial spirit I think. God be with you.

 

[girlbug2]

It's a pity you don't play rugby over there. I know you think soccer is a gentler game than your American football but here 'soccer' ( football to us lol) is known as a game of gentlemen played by thugs while rugby is a game of thugs played by gentlemen. Rugby is by far the superior game, you can laugh all you want at cricket too but it's invaluable for teaching youngsters how to 'play the game' in life. It's no accident that all our great leaders, warriors and notable people don't play soccer they play rugby and cricket!

OMG, I would love to find a rugby team for my kids! In high school gym class we spent a short segment one semester on rugby. I remember thinking it was so much more fun than football.

Unfortunately, you mention rugby over here and you'll be met with a lot of blank stares. Most people here associate it with a particular style of shirt.

 

[girlbug2]

I'm going to tone down my criticism to just this one question. How do you know that Jerry has a problem?

I'll be honest with you. I can't tell you how many threads, phone calls, emails, that I've gotten from parents and I know they are trying to defend their child to the death, but...

...the other side always creeps through.

Pardon me for being cynical. George Carlin said that every cynic was a disappointed idealist.

I love it when people prove George wrong...

I don't really know a way to prove that Jerry is a special needs kid, other than his general behavior. Things like when a kid bumps against him during a play, most kids yelp then shrug it off but Jerry reacts with explosive anger. The frequent tantrums in which Jerry has to be bodily carried off the field...I am not an educator nor a psychologist, but he just doesn't seem to be "wired" the same way as other kids, is the only way I could put it. Could it be the result of being spoiled or indulged or neglected? I suppose anything's possible, but OTOH it just seems too extreme to be explained away by that.
((shrug)) It's a moot point now. I really wish I knew the name of that disorder, if indeed it is a disorder.

 

[girlbug2]

Good question. Sounds like this isn't the first time Jerry has acted out. I'm curious how the other children on the team handle the situation?

At times they were pulled backwards by their jerseys and fell to the ground, or maybe shoved before the coach could step in. Once I saw another child start to shove Jerry right back, but other than that, the kids seemed wary of him and kept their distance.