Pinans and SKK

[youngbraveheart]

I am always interested in learning more about Chow's methods, but have only seen a couple of clips with Chow in motion and Master Chun Jr. performing some techs.

Would you mind sharing what the modifications are concerning your Basic 1 form that make it distinct? I really am interested in learning more about GoshinJitsu Kai Chinese Kempo.

Without being disrespectful to Great Grandmaster ("Professor") Chow's influence, all I have to say is that I think GM Chun Sr's ingenuity includes implimenting short tension snaps to our blocks and strikes, which appears to make us different. Our blocks become strikes (my arms don't bruise that easy anymore LOL...). Also, without going into any particular details, we are required to show real "meaning" in our forms as if we were making real blocks and strikes and not just going through the motions... (I understand that you might not even understand what I'm saying without someone demonstrating live and in person.)

I love it when Master Chun shows us how Great GM Chow would do a particular technique, how GM Chun Sr would do the same technique differently, and how he himself would do it differently. It's hard to try to tell you or share with you about what we do versus what another style does. If you really want to learn more, you can go to www.chinesekempo.org. Perhaps one day we might include our forms on there...

 

[marlon]

Yes your basic 1 is similiar to our 1 pinan. your 1 pinan is similiar to Heian Shodan.
Marlon - As far as I know SGM Pesare did not teach Prof. Cerio 1 pinan. Over the summer SGM Pesare taught me Drill 1, which was similiar to 1 pinan (SKK way) but the turns were different and it kindof went in the opposite direction. No big turn after 3 punches or even 180 degree backward turns.

Thanks master Dwire. Actually,now that i think about it, didn't Prof. Cerio get his Okinawan stuff originally from Kyokushin?

respectfully,
marlon

 

[Jdokan]

I originally had the same question as Mr Bishop did. Cup and Saucer is a new term for me. I will have to ask around the Kenpo community to see if anyone knows the answer.

As cup and saucer it was to indicate which hand was open (the bottom was the saucer)....the inverse of the hand position was called covered fist, and of course the third position was fist over fist....fwiw

 

[youngbraveheart]

Hi Johnny,

I have learned Basic 1 from Master Chun Jr. when I was with the Quebec group 2 years ago and from what I remember the difference is the C block and the last part of the form with the cat stances guard.

Dominic

Hello Dominic! (sorry I skipped over your post)

Are you no longer with the Quebec Group? If not, where are you training?

What about the right back handed closed fist strike near the beginning and the upper blocks right after that? Yes Dominic, that is essentially the differences...

Hope you are well...Johnny

 

[bill007]

Hello Dominic! (sorry I skipped over your post)

Are you no longer with the Quebec Group? If not, where are you training?

What about the right back handed closed fist strike near the beginning and the upper blocks right after that? Yes Dominic, that is essentially the differences...

Hope you are well...Johnny

I'm training with Marlon Wilson, I think I need a little refresh of the basic 1 if Master Chun come back on the east coast i'm gonna try to go.

Hope you are well too.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Coming from a japanese influenced background in the MA, I find I use analogies from my previous forms to provide additional alternate applications and variations to my Kenpo training and teaching.

Hi folks!
Excellent point!
I have found by studying different kenpo/kempo arts as well as other arts that have given me valuble insights into arts I teach.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

since we were off track on another thread, I would like to start a new thread. The pinans were added to the curriculum through Prof. Cerio. They were then modified by him to fit his style of Kenpo. Then the masters after him who continued to teach modified them even more to suit their understanding of the forms. Very few of these Masters went and studied the forms in their original way and intentions. My question is - besides good concepts that could be found, how many of you are required to know techniques from the Pinans and apply them to your self-defense curriculum for rank? When testing or in class besides working the bunkai, how many of you do reaction drills using the techniques within the form and if you do which ones?
I was busting Matt's chops in another thread because he is a good friend of mine and i know the owner of the school he works for (both were at my wedding) and Matt said he would get rid of some of them when he opens his own school some day. Who else would do the same? These are hard questions to ask people who have been doing it for a long time and like the forms. But in Kempo, how does Shotokan make us more fluid? Some of the teachers i have trained with add a lot of the shotokan forms into their requirements after black belt for further advancement? Would you think this is good or bad.
In Peace
Jesse

Hi folks!
Dear Jesse,
since the pinan kata were the original creation of an okinawan karate master [itosu], the closer we get to the original okinawan version of the forms offers a more chinese influenced insight that the later japanese versions of the forms. Over the last several years, many new england based kenpo practitioners [especially those formerly from Prof. Cerio's lineage] have incorporated more of the shotokan kata. Prof. Cerio's system became "more japanese" every day. That was his viable choice to take his system in that direction. I don't agree with that particular track,but I don't do NCK. I have found that looking at the okinawan and chinese arts have given me greater insights into the kenpo/kempo arts.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Yes, I have seen the Shotokan Heian series. The basic movements are very similar, but in my SKK style they are much softer and more fluid. We have incorporated the animals into the pinans as well.

Pinan #1 [Tiger], very karate-like, straight forward, powerful, always pressing.
Pinan #2 [Dragon], still very karate-like, added in the rising and falling into the blocks and strikes.
Pinan #3 [Crane], becomes softer and more fluid in its movements. Striking from a distance.
Pinan #4 [Leopard], very fluid, striking from a distance, minimized movements.
Pinan #5 [Snake], low stances, drawing the opponent into very fast, accurate strikes.

We are also asked on occasion to do the form as a different animal. I have not done them all this way, but as an example, I have done Pinan #1 as Tiger, Crane, Leopard, Snake and Dragon. All are a bit different in thier movements, blocks and strikes.

Hi folks!
Dear 14kempo,
The application of using the shaolin 5 animal format in regards is definitely a later innovation from SKK and was not taught in the earlier kenpo/kempo systems to my knowledge. I like the concept but would use them more in keeping with the original aspects mentioned in shaolin texts
tiger=ferocity and strength/isometric action
leopard=speed and multiple strikes
crane=poise,balance and slow motion/muscle control
snake=flowing motion,continuity of action, darting [snapping] strikes
Dragon=internal strength w/ a combination of the above animal aspects

Here's another way you can approach the pinans with animal actions: simply perform the tiger version with exclusively tiger claw hands,leopard with leopard paw hands,etc...
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

I was first taught the pinon's in 1970. We did both the air and application versions. When the pinon techniques were applied against an opponent they had to be modified. First of all half mooning is not a linear motion. When you shift your weight onto the supporting leg a minor side shift occurs. When this happens your /12:00/ center line changes. Pivoting to the side or rear is also causes a lateral action. Minor adjustments to the blocking or striking angles had to be made. In many of the pinons there is a pivot to the side with a downward block followed by a cross step with a front punch. Again range problems combined with the laterial action caused many problems during application. There were many varied explainations for this technique. In some of the pinons hand strikes followed a kick, when stepping down from the kick you were outside of the hand strikes power curve. Another pinon had large circular blocks that were applied with a cross step. Again the resulting range was improper for the following strikes. Again this is what happened with the 1970's version.
Because of these and other reasons I dropped the pinons along time ago. I now only use old pinon #1 & #2 to teach proper breathing with continuous motion. These are not rank required forms.

Hi folks!
Dear Prof. Cunningham,
I was not aware that you no longer taught the pinans! I did want to ask you regarding the circular block /cross step pattern comment. I presume you are refering to 4 pinan? I've like to get your reason and rationale on why you conisder the range improper with regards to the strikes taught as well.
Thank you for your time,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

My old instructor dropped 1 and 2 pinion a long time ago. He felt that they were useless forms. Personally, I teach them to my students more as a way of teaching half-mooning and doing something with your hands while half-mooning. Over the years I have also come to learn how to pronounce them properly as Pinans and not Pinions.

Hi folks!
Dear Furfoot,
I agree with you regarding why you teach 1 & 2 pinan! As Prof Cunningham mentioned as well, the use of co-ordinating proper breathing with the physical action,Halfmooning to different directions,using a transitional cat stance as well as various hand strikes [BTW,Kenpo History: After returning from Hawaii and training with Prof. Chow,Prof.Cerio returns to RI,realizing that what he had learned in New England was so different from what he had learned recently From Prof.Chow. to incorporate what he had learned, he placed the actions that he had learned [vertical punch to the groin,Front two knuckle punches into rolling cross hammerfists to the groin,upward blocks with both front and rear arms w/ spear hand strikes to the throat and groin, as well as the other actions that were confirmed from his previous training,notably the back 2 knuckle punch & the corkscrew punch [outward block into snapping F2K.]
So, to delete those original "taikyoku" kata that were renamed pinan is to lose some of our legacy to Prof. Cerio & Prof. Chow.
I hoipe that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

1 pinion teaches basic movement. then when you look deeper it teaches you throwing arts, controlling arts, escaping arts. all from the same movements...Think about it and take a look at it.
Tell your students to try and find what i am talking about... its all there...
Unless you are stuck in a box
Kosho

all katas have them also.... just look deeper...

:ultracool

 

[RevIV]

Prof. Rebelo,
Thanks for the posts. I def. uderstand some of the things that you are talking about. It almost seems like some of the people went backwards though from what was taught in Hawaii.
Through the few seminars and talks I have been able to have with Master Chun, Jr. (all of which I learned a ton) It seemed that the hard Pinans and tesion were taught earlier on (KeNpo) and later turned into the softer Kempo forms (KeMpo) But here on the East Coast we kindof jump around and then after Black Belt like I stated before we learn some real fluid stuff then it goes back to the hard. To much change and not enough people understanding why in my opinion (or change just to have more material). Time for the drawing board for me.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Kosho,
for the exact reason you have stated is why i still teach 1 pinan and i kept 2 because it was a creation by Prof. Cerio and i use some techniques from it in my curriculum. But like others I have discarded 3,4,5 from the rank requirements. They are not supposed to by soft and circular from their origins, they just became that way. Lawdog i guess you and i are more on the same wave length for those. Have a great evening.
In Peace
Jesse
(i am trying to take the parts of the forms that did make sense and put them together in a combined form that helps my students keep some of the old)

Hi folks,
I remember Jesse and I having a coversation about one of the applications in one of the pinans [5?] and detailing out some it because we are stuck in a mindset of certasian motions "only being a ____ {place block,punch,strike,kick in blank space}. Its when we open our minds to to new and/or varied application of a given action that we gain insight/understanding.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[14 Kempo]

Hi folks!
Dear 14kempo,
The application of using the shaolin 5 animal format in regards is definitely a later innovation from SKK and was not taught in the earlier kenpo/kempo systems to my knowledge. I like the concept but would use them more in keeping with the original aspects mentioned in shaolin texts
tiger=ferocity and strength/isometric action
leopard=speed and multiple strikes
crane=poise,balance and slow motion/muscle control
snake=flowing motion,continuity of action, darting [snapping] strikes
Dragon=internal strength w/ a combination of the above animal aspects

Here's another way you can approach the pinans with animal actions: simply perform the tiger version with exclusively tiger claw hands,leopard with leopard paw hands,etc...
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Boy, talk about pulling one out of the woodwork ... LOL ... this was almost two years old. Thanks for your comments, sir, I like the idea of doing the pinans with strikes that are of the 5 animals. I am no longer with the organization that did them as the 5 animals and have a much more open-minded look at what is being accomplished with the pinans. Yes, we still teach the pinans and katas of SKK, but they are not the focus, but rather a way of working stances, transitions and proper body movement. I now study a kempo style that is more influenced by Chinese arts rather than what I considered a very Japanese oriented Kempo out here on the Left Coast.

 

[RevIV]

Hi folks,
I remember Jesse and I having a coversation about one of the applications in one of the pinans [5?] and detailing out some it because we are stuck in a mindset of certasian motions "only being a ____ {place block,punch,strike,kick in blank space}. Its when we open our minds to to new and/or varied application of a given action that we gain insight/understanding.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

That was 5, and it was a great lesson thank you. It was a break down after the crescent kick / elbow move, up to the leap. even though you helped open my mind on it,, I still had to discard.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Speaking of 1 Kata...

Interested in hearing how you all end the form.

Do you:
a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)

I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.

I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.

Hi folks!
Dear Todd,
When we look at the evolution of that form's movements and it's application we see different techniques...
George Pesare teaches it as a low side kick to opponent's knee to break the leg and drive said opponet to the ground.
Prof. Chow taught to execute a low side kick [either heel to the knee directly or side blade kick [an okinawan influence] above the knee to the insertion point of the quadricep to tear the connective tissue to the knee {ask Paul Levesque/Triple H of WWE fame what it's like to have your quad detatch dfrom the insertion point on the bone and have the torm muscsle fire up your leg!} as you excute the backfist to opponent's temple as they bend over, having no "lateral structural integrity" [BTW, the backfist also acts as a defensive action to stop the forward momnetum of your opponent's head to cause a possible unintentional headbutt]
You can use a side blade kick to the bladder area [as kosho eluded to in his mention of the "folds of the body" that cause the body to fold forward within range of the afore mentioned backfist/back knuckle
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[SK101]

""c" seems to me, might be my capability and flexibility, that if I was close enough to use a #1 or #2 block, which is against a punch, I would be to close to deliver an effective side kick.

Just my 2 cents ...

try kicking them in the rear knee. I like this take off a single lapel rt hand grab. Step back with left leg to off balance the opponent. Pin arm with your left as you hammer their then rt bk fst to right temple and left side kick to knee.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Prof. Cerio did not create Pinan 1 and it isn't really based on Shotokan's Heian Shodan. SKK's Pinan 1 is actually Taikyoku Shodan from Shotokan.

Here is a video clip of it:

Here is a video clip of Heian Shodan from Shotokan

It's interesting, in other styles that use the Pinan forms Heian Shodan is actually Pinan Nidan, Gichin switched the order of these two because the 2nd one was acutally easier to learn. The Taikyoku was based on Pinan Nidan/Heian Shodan and was created as a beginner's kata.

Many of you have touched on the lack of applications (bunkai) with this. The reason is that the original applications were NOT a defense against "karate style" attacks. They were used against an aggressive untrained person grabbing/punching etc. If you look at Iain Abernethy's work he goes towards ALOT of putting that information back in the katas. Here is an interesting article about the Pinan/Heian series as it relates to a complete fighting system.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp

It is an interesting read and shows the progression of distance and types of attacks.

As far as emphasizing or not emphasizing these forms as "Shaolin Kempo" is not Shotokan. That is partially true, Okinawan Kempo does use the Pinans they are not just a "Shotokan kata". So by including the name of "kempo" in it, you are calling attention to it's okinawan roots along with it's Chinese roots.

Hi folks!
good post! I explained some of prof chow's influences on prof cerio and his version of the pinan kats.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Punisher - I do not think that anyone said Prof. Cerio created 1 pinan. I stated that he created 2 pinan. It is interesting to note one other thing. The origins that you state 1 pinan comes from is exactly where Matt B. says they come from. I had Master Chun Jr. at my school a few months ago and he said that his father created 1 pinan and that we should all know that. Thank you again for the links you posted.

Hi folks!
Dear Jesse,
It should be noted that the "pinan 1" that Prof.Chun teaches is not the taikyoku based kata taught by Prof. Cerio nor it it the Japanese kata taught on shotokan. I know this because Bill Chiun went over his version of Pinan 1 at one of his seminar appearences in new england.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[RevIV]

Hi folks!
Dear Jesse,
It should be noted that the "pinan 1" that Prof.Chun teaches is not the taikyoku based kata taught by Prof. Cerio nor it it the Japanese kata taught on shotokan. I know this because Bill Chiun went over his version of Pinan 1 at one of his seminar appearences in new england.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

I hope you read a little further wher this was all cleared up. His Basic 1 is similiar to our 1 pinan. and The Chow/Chun 1 pinan bore a resemblence to Shotokan. Master Chun's 2 pinan is very similiar to our Heien Nidan (from Shotokan) there are a few differences Like we do a Side kick/ back fist and he does a Back kick/ reverse hammer at the same time