Pigua vs. WC

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the Pigua system, you can see a lot of

- arm extension,
- body rotation,

that you just don't see in the WC system. IMO, it's very interested to compare these 2 MA systems.

Which approach do you like?

Pigua:

WC:

 

[Mitlov]

Option C: the Goldilocks option between these two extremes.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Pigua looks like a lot of movement - perhaps wasted movement? I would be curious to see it in an actual fight or sparring since there were a lot of flowery movements there that are hard to grasp any application of.

At the least, the two are very opposite ends of the spectrum, with WC being endlessly devoted to efficiency. I don't practice it currently, but when I did - my Si Bak would say: "We work so hard to move so little".

 

[Martial D]

In the Pigua system, you can see a lot of

- arm extension,
- body rotation,

that you just don't see in the WC system. IMO, it's very interested to compare these 2 MA systems.

Which approach do you like?

Pigua:

WC:

Neither. Both of those approaches will get you creamed.

 

[skribs]

I'm curious what the purpose is of those full-extension arm circles you see in a lot of Kung Fu styles.

Almost every strike, lock, and throw I know involves your elbows bending at some point.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm curious what the purpose is of those full-extension arm circles you see in a lot of Kung Fu styles.

Almost every strike, lock, and throw I know involves your elbows bending at some point.

@JowGaWolf, i believe your style does those right? Im pretty sure i saw it in your sparring videos at least. Whats the purpose?

 

[Mitlov]

I'm curious what the purpose is of those full-extension arm circles you see in a lot of Kung Fu styles.

Almost every strike, lock, and throw I know involves your elbows bending at some point.

I think in theory they're supposed to be strikes like the overhand right. Whether they translate to that in practice or not is going to depend on training methods of the particular school.

No arm bend here:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

what the purpose is of those full-extension arm circles you see in a lot of Kung Fu styles.

- Develop full body power.
- Unify whole body as one unit.
- Get the maximum reach.
- You front arm, body, back arm make a perfect straight line.
- Make your back as part of your arm.
- Stretch your body to the maximum.
- ...

Southern "short" fist - work so hard to move so little.
Northern "long" fist - work so little to move so far.

I don't train Pigua. But I have cross trained the white ape Tongbei which is similar to Pigua.

 

[skribs]

- You front arm, body, back arm make a perfect straight line.

Can you expand on what this means, and why it's important?

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm curious what the purpose is of those full-extension arm circles you see in a lot of Kung Fu styles.

Almost every strike, lock, and throw I know involves your elbows bending at some point.

ITs an example of what I’ve said many times: large movements help create unified body movement, which can develop tremendous power. It is an exaggerated movement meant for training. Once you develop the ability to use unified body movement through large movements, you can shorten the movement and still get tremendous unified body power. You do not fight with the big movement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can you expand on what this means, and why it's important?

When you throw a punch with 90 degree, or 135 degree shoulder, you may miss your opponent's face by 1 inches. If you punch with 180 degree shoulder, your punch may land on your opponent's face.

This training is so important that all long fist beginner have to learn it during day one.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

ITs an example of what I’ve said many times: large movements help create unified body movement, which can develop tremendous power. It is an exaggerated movement meant for training. Once you develop the ability to use unified body movement through large movements, you can shorten the movement and still get tremendous unified body power. You do not fight with the big movement.

This is absolute correct. The large movement is for training.

In theory,

- The northern CMA system trains how to open first. They then train how to close later.
- The southern CMA system trains how to close first. They then train how to open later.

The issue is most people may start from one training but may never complete the other training.

 

[Flying Crane]

When you throw a punch with 90 degree, or 135 degree shoulder, you may miss your opponent's face by 1 inches. If you punch with 180 degree shoulder, your punch may land on your opponent's face.

This training is so important that all long fist beginner have to learn it during day one.

That straight line can be aimed at greater reach, but it is also about complete and total rotation of the body, to get as much power as possible.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@JowGaWolf, i believe your style does those right? Im pretty sure i saw it in your sparring videos at least. Whats the purpose?

Yes. It has big long punches. They are my favorite.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Pigua looks like a lot of movement - perhaps wasted movement? I would be curious to see it in an actual fight or sparring since there were a lot of flowery movements there that are hard to grasp any application of.

If the form concept is anything like I train. The form is done in bigger circles because in fighting things shrink. So the only way to get good flexibility and arm rotation is to practice those motions big. The big circular motion also helps with learning how to generate the power that's needed to make these things work.

In fight application, that movement would vary in length. sometimes short, sometimes long, and other times in between the 2 extremes. The movement looks flowery in practice but there's a lot of internal focus going on. Get that type of punch wrong and you can end up hyper extending your elbow, or dislocating your shoulder. This doesn't mean that the guy in the video can fight his way out of a paper bag, it just means that in theory those movements are to help train your body so that you can then learn to use them in sparring. Think of it as a 2 part training. First learn the movement of a jab. Second, learn how to apply the jab.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Neither. Both of those approaches will get you creamed.

Comments like this makes me want to record me doing my forms, then showing the application in free sparring, and then show exactly what part of the form contains the technique. The only way you'll get creamed is if you try a technique that you don't actually try to use in sparring.

 

[Flying Crane]

Option C: the Goldilocks option between these two extremes.

Well they are following two different training theories, and simply splitting the difference does not work. You either follow the theory or you find something else to do.

Each system is build upon a theory and designed to work well with that theory in mind. If you practice in a way that does not utilize the theory, then the system as a whole tends to break down.

This is why it often does not work well to mix different systems. It can work, but the person doing the mixing must understand the theories underneath each system very well, in order to mix them in a way that makes sense and remains effective.

Some things simply ought to not be mixed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm curious what the purpose is of those full-extension arm circles you see in a lot of Kung Fu styles.

Almost every strike, lock, and throw I know involves your elbows bending at some point.

The purpose of full-extensions arms circles:

• it interferes with incoming punches.
• it generates a lot of power. Think of swinging a bat
• they are deceptive in application.
  
• they open up an opponent.
• they travel in the opponents blind spot.
• they can be used to attack limbs or wrap
• multiple application and ranges of use from short to long.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think in theory they're supposed to be strikes like the overhand right. Whether they translate to that in practice or not is going to depend on training methods of the particular school.

No arm bend here:

That's a CMA application. he has the concept but not the technique, his technique is more like throwing a ball, in application you have to be better rooted if you plan to throw more than one of these punches. He tries to hit with the top knuckles and that's the wrong place to hit. It's almost like he took a CMA concept and added a Westerner's approach to hitting with the knuckles.

Beginners striking pads

Beginner / Intermediate (only because I don't know if he can actually apply it.) In terms of being able to flow through the punches, in most schools he would be an intermediate.

 

[Hanzou]

As performance art, Piqua. As a martial art, Wing Chun. If I was trying to learn how to fight with my hands, I'd head to a boxing gym.