Physical Response to Groin Shots

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by Kenpodoc, May 20, 2003.

  1. Kenpodoc

    Kenpodoc 2nd Black Belt

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    Doc has repeatedly stated that groin shots do not make people bend forward at the waist. Over the six years I have trained I have noted two different responses to groin shots.

    1. Light shots to the groin cause my opponent to bend his knees slightly, thrust his hips back and maintain his center of gravity bymoving his shoulders forward.

    2. Hard shots to the groin cause the recipient to bend at the knees and drop straight to the floor. They then either gasp for breath and don't move or roll sideways to the floor groaning.

    In neither case do they bend forward at the waist. I anticipate 2 other variables on the street.

    A. The lack of cup may change the physiologic response.

    B. An intoxicated or drugged opponent may not respond at all to a groin shot.

    Do others have similar experiences to mine?

    Jeff
     
  2. KenpoDragon

    KenpoDragon Guest

    Kenpodoc, I love it when people say that a groin shot will not cause a person to bend at the waist in a forward motion....because then I kick them in the groin,hahaaha!!!! I had a "street" altercation in which I delivered a right front snap kick to the guy's groin, guess what happened, he bent over in a forward motion. He then grabbed me with both hands, at chest level. I then delivered a right knee lift to his groin, he crouched down even further. Street scenarios and "studio" scenarios are 2 different things. If your only in the studio practicing that's one thing, as opposed to when you have to use it on the street, it is completely different. I respect Doc Chapel's opinion, but after all that's all it is, his opinion. What works for one person does not apply for everyone. You have to adjust for the variables (height, weight), you know what I mean??? Doc's a BIG guy, his "Kenpo" is not the same as mine, or yours for that matter. You have to remember, in the studio we wear cups (groin protectors), but we don't wear them out on the street, at least I don't, I can't speak for anyone else. It's difficult to say what this guy will do or what that guy will do, because every guy or girl is different. Hence the "Ideal", "What If", "Formulation" stages. In my experiences guys "do" bend forward at the waist in a forward motion, when struck in the groin, but like I said before these are simply my experiences, I'm sure you'll have your own someday. Why don't you ask "Seige" what he thinks about the old "Boot to the groin" ???? Sorry Seige I know that was copyright infringement!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!:asian: :asian:
     
  3. Billy Lear

    Billy Lear Guest

    What is the trajectory of your kick?

    What is the target?

    Are you kicking him in the front of his lower abdominal region (a.k.a the bladder) with the ball of your foot, or are you kicking him in the testicles with the instep of your foot on an upward trajectory?

    Are you snapping or thrusting your kick?

    These things can really effect the results of your kick.
     
  4. kenpo12

    kenpo12 Guest

    I have to agree with Kenpodragon, the one time I used a groin kick in the street (which was before I ever trained in kenpo) the guy bent or forward while grabbing his groin and then fell to the ground. And to answer Mr. Lears question, the kick was pretty much a forward stiff leg raise right between the legs, he actually came off of the ground a bit.

    Matt
     
  5. Brenwulv

    Brenwulv Guest

    Just curious, how is this not bending at the waist if the hips move back and shoulders forward?

    As for experiences, a straight shot to the front of the groin causes a forward bend in a person most often.

    A kick that comes up from underneath, as a scoop kick, will cause the body to rise a little, and then settle, with knees bent slightly.

    These are kicks to the testicles, not lower abdomen, for clarity.

    This is the usual response that I have seen though the rolling on the ground reaction does happen occasionally. :D

    Respectfully,
    Joel
     
  6. Patty

    Patty Guest

    I have a friend who's a large animal veterinarian. He assured me that after having been kicked in the groin by cows, horses, and moose, that you do indeed bend forward at the waist as a basic physiologic response - partly in a subconscious attempt to move a recently injured area out of the path of further harm!
     
  7. Billy Lear

    Billy Lear Guest

    I don't believe it. I just don't! I've always been under the impression that men do jumping jacks as a reaction to getting kicked in the nutts. Please say it ain't so...

    Kidding ya know :D ,
    Billy Lear, UKS
     
  8. Michael Billings

    Michael Billings Senior Master

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    You may do jumping jacks, the rest of us moan, whimper, buckle, bend, or fall. WE HAVE BEEN FOLDED, BENT, AND MUTILATED.

    OUCHIE,

    -Michael
     
  9. Billy Lear

    Billy Lear Guest

    Sounds like love to me. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
     
  10. twinkletoes

    twinkletoes Guest

    I hit another guy in the groin once in middle school. It was just a tap with my elbow (he grabbed me from behind, but was standing on something). He folded in half, grabbing himself with both hands, and then dropped into the fetal position, where he remained for a few minutes.

    I trained with one instructor who had a lot of bouncing experience in NYC. He said he had kicked "dozens" of people in the groin over the years. Most of them doubled and eventually fell down. He did recount one story in which someone he had thrown out of the club kept coming back in. As the guy pulled the door open, he wound up like he was kicking a field goal and punted him square in the groin. He said rather than doubling, the guy just raised up a couple inches, like he was surprised, and hung there for a moment. He kicked him again, and got the same response. "The third kick dropped him," he told me with a grin.

    ~TT
     
  11. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    I have to agee with those that say a person bends over. Even if you do not kick them but make a kicking motion, to a person not in the martial arts, they useually will bend at the waist as they pull their hips back to protect themsleves.
    A well palced kick or slap to the groin area will cause most men to clutch the injured area as the bend ( almost looks like they are bowing). Followed by them backing away ,falling, or getting really angry. In the last case RUN
     
  12. kenpo_cory

    kenpo_cory Purple Belt

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    That's kinda odd to say that it doesn't. I respect Mr. Chapel's knowledge about kenpo, but every time I have ever been kicked in the groin or done the kicking there was ALWAYS a bending at the waste. Then came the groaning and whimpering. :btg:
     
  13. Reprobate

    Reprobate Guest

    I just grin, spread my legs further and say, "Is that all, you wimp!". Then I double over and project vomit all over his shoes...
     
  14. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

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    As usual when having a conversation it is always a good idea to define terms to insure clear communication. I stand by my educational and personal experience assessment. However no one has yet to define, "bending over," or what constututes the "groin." And for the record I do know the difference between the school and the street. Also the size of the individual executing a kick does not alter the physical reactions of those being kicked. Last but not least, I do not see this as an issue of tailoring, what if's and other non related concepts. I further feel if I stick my finger in your eye, you will have a particular reaction as well, but that reaction is still only my opinion.

    Two in the box,
    ready to go,
    we be fast,
    and they be slow.
     
  15. kenpo_cory

    kenpo_cory Purple Belt

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    I'd say that is a pretty good definition of "bending over" And I'll go out on a limb here and say that the definition of "groin shot" that we are speaking of would be the testicles.
     
  16. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

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    Assuming the definitions you choose to use, that would not be "bending over" in an anatomical sense. By the way, all humans do not have “testicles” and therefore your definition excludes more than 50% of the population of the USA, so I suggest you revise your definition.

    The definition I use is;

    “The “groin” is described as the area between the two (2) connecting points between where the femur attaches to the hip across the pelvic below the abdomen. Therefore strikes to different parts of the groin with different methodologies solicit different responses. As Mr. Lear alluded to.

    The reaction I suspect you call “bending over” is actually a bodily reaction to external stimuli. Kicking underneath between the legs in the “anatomical groin” causes the legs to retract or buckle vertically, as the back straightens somewhat with the chin up. What I believe most consider “bending over” is a secondary reaction, after the fact. Kind of like people who said they “saw” an auto accident. But in reality they “heard” the crash, and turned there head and witnessed the cars immediately after the crash.

    If you were standing and I asked you to pick up something on the ground that required 2 hands, would the movement you make resemble the reaction described by KenpoDoc? Both are not anatomically "bending over." One is an action, the other a reaction. This is a significant fact.

    The distinction is great when considering additional target acquisitions and availability after a “groin” area strike in “real time.”

    Driving the hips rearward is not “bending over” and the individual is not “bending” at the waist, and in fact will take at least one step (probably more) rearward to compensate for the loss of balance caused by the hip displacement, and would eventually be in a different place and body posture position than when struck directly between the legs upward.

    For two people to convey information, they must be specific, and also speak the same language. - Ed Parker

    Don’t make assumptions about anything anatomical. The body is in a constant state of flux as a living machine, and reacts differently based on such an infinite number of variables, you can never say “always” without defining those variables, which is sometimes mathematically prohibitive.

    In my opinion, and apparently in KenpoDoc’s experience as well, the reactions and definitions you use are “different.”

    General knowledge always produces general results! – Ed Parker
    Beauty may be skin deep but, dumb is forever! - Judith Shienlin
     
  17. Brenwulv

    Brenwulv Guest

    My definition of ‘groin’ = A roughly 4 inch diameter circle centered around the space between your legs, below the bladder, external genetalia included, if applicable.

    My definition of ‘bending over’ = body positioning somewhere between this --> |, and this --> __, close to this --> \. Think of an American football player in a huddle. Knees slightly bent, hands resting on mid thigh, body position close to 45 degrees.

    Uh, I thought that’s what was being discussed, the bodily reaction to being kicked in the groin (being kicked as the external stimuli).



    But I can hear a crash and then turn to see the car careen into the barrier and/or roll down the street, I might not have seen the initial impact, but I can still see the ‘rest of the crash.’ You say it as if the initial rise and drop happens and then the guy sits there for five minutes before the ‘secondary reaction.’ If the rise, drop, and bending takes place in a quarter of a second, why bother separating them?




    Okay, let’s take this in the form of techniques. In Gripping Talon you get to the last portion of the base technique. From a left rear crossover you use the right leg to buckle the opponent’s leg as you strike to the back of the neck/head. The person’s body goes from (roughly) Fig. A to Fig. B.

    .......O......................O (Head)<-- Force
    .......|.........................\
    .......|..........................\
    .......|...........................\
    .......|............................\
    .......|.............................\
    .......|..............................\
    .......|............Force -->......\ (Leg)

    Fig. A...........................Fig. B



    So by using two opposing forces you make the person bend, or otherwise fall over.

    Delayed Sword Thread Now, in this thread you state that a front snap kick to the groin will not cause a person to bend over at the waist (remember my definition for this term, so we can communicate clearly)

    From Delayed Sword Thread...
    I agree that a front kick from underneath, or a scoop kick as I know it’s termed, will cause the person to rise up and then squat down.

    However, a front kick that snaps horizontally, force on the horizontal plane, will cause a person to bend at the waist. I speak again of the Gripping Talon example. Slide that picture up the body, so the force is now against the groin.


    .......O......................O (Head)<-- Force (Momentum of Attacker)
    .......|.........................\
    .......|..........................\
    .......|...........................\
    .......|............................\
    .......|.............................\
    .......|..............................\
    .......|............Force -->......\ (Groin)

    Fig. A...........................Fig. B


    This simple diagram shows that the person will bend over (according to my definition). They may settle back a step or two, but that doesn’t mean they won’t still be bent over. Their torso won’t bend from the opposition of forces, before they step back, straighten up, squat down with knees bent, then ‘bend over’ again as your secondary reaction says they do.

    But, if what you say is the ‘correct’ or common reaction then the techniques within EPAK that base strikes off of this principle (hitting the groin bends the person at the waist) are incorrect, and thus Mr. Parker was incorrect in creating the techs as set forth.

    I’m still confused in how you see this.

    Joel
     
  18. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

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    Your definitions are incorrect from an educated perspective, not specific to a physical perspective, and anatomically wrong. I sorry you didn’t understand my explanation. “Bending over “ is not a Position as you say, but it is a physical act. An adjective if you will, not a noun. An action, not a completed action. For your football players to get to that huddle position they had to “bend over.” That is their heads came forward and down as they flexed the waist. If their backs were against a wall, they could still “bend over.” In human anatomy it’s not position but how you arrive at that position that defines the activity. Everything else is static posture. So since the original statement was about an external stimulus creating a condition, we are talking about an activity not a posture.

    I’m afraid you miss the point altogether, and for the record, You are characterizing it as a quarter of a second not I, and you still don’t seem to understand.

    That too is not bending over. You are “tilting on a vertical axis” and have introduced another element in the buckle that takes you further away from what the conversation is about.

    Uh? If you want to use that definition why are we having a discussion? I already gave mine when I answered the question, and you disagreed. Supplanting your definition for my own stated position is not going to further your discussion. In fact if I did that, there would be no need to discuss it further. I have already said I disagree with what you call “bending over” and you actually are getting further from your own definition as you attempt to explain it in "technique terms?"

    Of course that’s according to your understanding. I know a bit about Ed Parker and his Kenpo, and the fact you draw on that information as your source is I'm afraid suspect in itself.

    If an object that is hinged in the middle is standing vertically, and you push it backwards in the middle at the hinge. The top stays in place and the middle move backwards. It is not bending forward, it is moving away at the hinge. If you don’t see the self-defense implication when we speak of Kenpo, than I cannot help you. Lets use a synonym that may help. Another word for “Bending” is “flexing.” If I asked you to “flex over” would the movement you describe when the hips are driven back fit the word description?

    Let me leave you with this, the crux of those manuals you are depending upon for your “knowledge” were written a minimum of almost thirty years ago with various updates and revisions over the yeas by various sources, and I have every version. The last version is 16 years old. They are conceptual and contain no specific information. If they are what you are relying on as your source then you will be lacking in many other areas as well. If you cited another perspective it would be different, but to discuss a technique and disagree “cause the manual said something" is a bit out there in this day an age. I know of no one that does that. Those are idea books to promote thought, and are not definitive on any subject. Additionally one of the reasons Kenpo kept evolving is because Parker would discover his own mistakes and rectify them. Ed Parker had a tendency like most humans to be wrong from time to time, and when he discovered mistakes or a better way to express or do something, he changed. So please don’t suggest I am somehow “dissin’” Parker because I disagreed with YOU.

    But I’m not talking Kenpo, I’m speaking of bodily reactions so whatever information you think you have picked up from whatever source is absolutely anatomically incorrect.

    So I see, but at least we have something we can agree on. I thank you for the exchange, but I have exhausted my explanations on the subject for the day. I must return to those who pay my salary before they decide they don’t need me.

    Peace.


    Beauty may be skin deep, but dumb is forever - Judith Sheinlin
     
  19. Cheese and Rice. Mr. Chapel, please get off your high horse of educated vs uneducated and speak plainly. The average person knows what bending over is, and we'll just go with that. If you're in a horizontal position, you sit up. Please



    Have a great Kenpo day

    Clyde
     
  20. Bill Lear

    Bill Lear Brown Belt

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    I think that Chapel is trying to define the differences of an upward vs. an inward trajectory on a kick to the groin.

    If the kick to the groin is executed in a horizontal fashion (inward vs. upward) your opponent will fold, but their center mass will move way from you as well. These actions would occur almost simultaneously.

    If the kick is executed in an upward fashion your opponent will more than likely hop up off the ground and then bend at the waist. Not simultaneously, but within a fraction of a second after the impact of the kick. In this instance your opponent would not move away from you, his center of gravity would cave, or bend toward you.

    In either case your opponent is bending over, but the results of executing one kick over the other could vastly change the process involved in your technique.
    :asian:
     

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