Philosophy and Spirituality in the Arts

[JadecloudAlchemist]

the title of this post is the same as the title of this subforum - and for a reason. How do you include philosophy and spirituality in the art(s) you practice? How do you define philosophy and spirituality in terms of the art(s) you practice? Do you include them at all? Why or why not?

First the defination of Philosphy from the root word meaning Philo-love and sphy-meaning wisdom. Spiritual coming from Spiritualis- breath of wind and matters of religious value. And Religion- meaning restrain tie back from its root word. These are not my definations but a dictionary defination. Now that we have that how and what I include will vary from others. I tend to see martial practices as a method of culivation of spirituality to obtain a higher level. I have always looked at martial arts as a vessel for spiritual growth rather than the latter of self defense which to me is a side addition for perserving oneself for spiritual growth.
I tend to think both go well together in many stories of the past we here of the tired warrior who old and tired of battle and blood shed looks for a deeper meaning and understanding of purpose and life. I think Philosphy sets the blue prints and ideas to obtain spirituality kind of like tempering a sword. I include Philopshy because it helps shape my mind and direction I allow myself to go I include spirituality to help my understanding of purpose and I include religion as the manifestion of spiritual practice.
These are just my thoughts on the matter take what you will disregard what you will as well.

 

[tellner]

A lot of the important points have already been covered, especially by Steel Tiger, Exile. Kacey and Xue Sheng.

There's a lot of fortune cookie philosophy in the MA. People expect martial arts teachers to be imbued with The Philosophy of (fill in the blank). Sometimes those people are the teachers themselves. If their best training is in how to hit people rather than Confucian ethics or Buddhism, so it doesn't really fit. A Black Belt doesn't make you a qualified philosophy or religion teacher any more than seminary makes you a boxer.

But anything pursued seriously enough with the right intention can become a vehicle for growth in other areas. Motivational psychology and sports performance visualization can approach areas that were traditionally thought to be philosophy or spiritual practice. Ethics in self defense can start off as simple as "shoot, don't shoot". Take the questions to heart they can lead to some pretty deep things. The old military arts of Japan often include esoteric Buddhist teachings and practice. Some of this is because the students had to function in a world that was brutal and bloody without going mad or turning into monsters.

So I'm left with a very unsatisfying "Yes, yes, yes, yes, it all depends."

In a self defense class I cover the legal and ethical issues. Other things are only hinted at. Students sometimes say they could never do this or that to defend themselves. Could they if their child was being threatened? You can practically see them grow fur and sprout fangs at the question. I guess it's injecting philosophy to say "If there's a difference between your answers ask yourself why." That's about as far as it goes.

 

[Doc_Jude]

I think there is an equal emphasis on what you do to prevent an attack. If not, it's time to leave the mall dojo for something a little deeper.

That's not Philosophy or Spirituality, that's Threat Avoidance.

 

[Kacey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monadnock
I think there is an equal emphasis on what you do to prevent an attack. If not, it's time to leave the mall dojo for something a little deeper.

That's not Philosophy or Spirituality, that's Threat Avoidance.

Yes and no... part of the philosophy of self-defense I teach includes avoidance, and what to do when avoidance is not possible.

 

[theletch1]

I don't think I could take spiritual leadership from someone that I pay to teach me a skill. It just doesn't work that way for me.

I felt very much the same way until I began training with my current instructor. He doesn't attempt to "teach" spirituality at all. He is who he is. He's a good man, a great instructor and someone who I am proud to call friend. The spiritual leadership that I get from him is what I take through observation...not what he is willing to impart.

As for spirituality in training, it's either a part of you (not your training) or it isn't. I feel that your own spirituality will color the way YOU do your martial art more than it will affect your art as a whole. Make your art your own and it will contain parts of who you are on all levels. Yeah, there's a place for spirituality in the arts but only as far as the individual artists needs to have it.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Quote:
[/I]


Yes and no... part of the philosophy of self-defense I teach includes avoidance, and what to do when avoidance is not possible.

I get what you're saying, really, but I'm not trying to get into a semantic argument. From the OP, I thought we were talking about Taoism / Buddhism / Confucianism / Shintoism / Advaita / Sanatana Dharma / et cetera, not "Self-Defense philosophy" or nit-picking ethics (which can be contained within Philosophies or Spiritual systems, but exists independent also).

Pls correct me if I'm wrong about that.

 

[Monadnock]

That's not Philosophy or Spirituality, that's Threat Avoidance.

I seem to recall reading of a man who wanted to use his art to spread world peace. Ues...Ueshi...Ueshib.....ahh, the name escapes me but it'll come to me some time....


I'm sure it had nothing to do with his philosophy or his religion. The martial arts began long before him, and continue on long after him, but he started his own art and it was very much derived from a philosophy.

Chicken before the egg, cart before the horse - perhaps it is debatable on which infuences what, but the arts and philosophy are certainly entwined, there is no denying that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I seem to recall reading of a man who wanted to use his art to spread world peace. Ues...Ueshi...Ueshib.....ahh, the name escapes me but it'll come to me some time....


I'm sure it had nothing to do with his philosophy or his religion. The martial arts began long before him, and continue on long after him, but he started his own art and it was very much derived from a philosophy.

Chicken before the egg, cart before the horse - perhaps it is debatable on which infuences what, but the arts and philosophy are certainly entwined, there is no denying that.

Morihei Ueshiba and you still don't get am overt lesson about Zen in an Aikido dojo either

 

[Monadnock]

Morihei Ueshiba and you still don't get am overt lesson about Zen in an Aikido dojo either

Did you just use "overt" and "Zen" in the same sentence???

Oh - where did Ueshiba study zen? I'd like to read up more on that while I am at it.

 

[theletch1]

As I understand it the spiritual side of aikido came into play after the art was established. The older and more spiritual Ueshiba became the more a part of the art his philosophy became. I believe that is one of the reasons there are such a diverse group of sub-styles of aikido in the world...different takes on the "spiritual" influence on the art.

 

[Rich Parsons]

So... the title of this post is the same as the title of this subforum - and for a reason. How do you include philosophy and spirituality in the art(s) you practice? How do you define philosophy and spirituality in terms of the art(s) you practice? Do you include them at all? Why or why not?

Kacey,

I will try to answer your question the best I can, please see below.

(* PS: Thanks for the note in the rep on my Logic *)

I am, I suspect, going to be very much the odd man out. But spirituality plays no more part in my MA training than it did in my ski racing training when I did that.

I take as my models MAists such as Bushi Matsumura, Chotoku Kyan, and Choki Motobu, who made it clear in both their words and deeds that their MA was, for them, first and foremost a set of fighting skills. A set of physical actions which had a particular kind of physical result.

I went to junior high school and high school with a disproportionate number of aggressive bullies who make Dudley Dursley look like the bookies' favorite for this year's Nobel Prize in physics, and to university in a very dangerous, unpredictable city where many nice, ordinary people, people much like me, travelled armed to the teeth for personal self-protection. So, many decades before I started studying MAs, I was in the market for any kind of self-defense system which would allow me to defend myself effectively and—this is a little hard to explain concisely—elegantly, in the sense that a forced mate in chess is elegant. I wanted a technique set that I could apply to a variety of violent attacking moves that would, all other things being equal (no weapons, equal shares of luck, etc) give me heavy odds-up on my attacker and force him out of the fight, badly injured most likely, regardless of what he did after throwing the first punch. I also had weapons at hand, but those were for situations where I had lead time to deploy them prior to an attack and very likely scare it off (as happened on several occasions—it's remarkable how fast the sight of eighteen inches of inch-long motorcycle chain link in your would-be victim's hand convinces you to that the path of virtue, arduous though it is, is definitely the better path! ).

When I finally started formal MA training, many decades later, my views and expectations hadn't changed. MA = CQ H2H SD. For many people it has other dimensions, I know, and that's fine; I do calligraphy, and used to know calligraphers who viewed calligraphy as a spiritual exercise. And there are probably ski racers who think of ski racing that way... and if you think it is, then, in a sense, it is. It's just... I don't, and so for me, it isn't.

Exile,

I agree that I found martial arts as a stress reliever but mainly as a way to learn how not to break (* by strength/fear/adrenaline *) the people I touched who were in general trying to hurt me. The questions were getting boring being repeated so often as well as knowing the officers by name.

I really enjoyed the arts for the movement itself. So one could say I have found a "ZEN" like approach for me. And this is good. But it is no what we teach nor what is expected.

In Balintawak there is no formal philosophy or spirituality. My instructor is Catholic and that is not surprising being from the Philippines.

In Modern Arnis we introduce the students to the following:

Personal Attitude

1.) Use The Flow in all Aspects of Life.

2.) Respect Oneself and Others.

3.) Knowledge is True Strength.

4.) Listen to the Heart as well as the Words.

5.) Strive to Learn True Self-Defense.

6.) Do NOT Resist what YOU know to be True.

7.) Do NOT Bind YOURSELF with “I Can’t”.

8.) Open the Mind so IT can Grow.

and


Cardinal Rules and Principals of Arnis

Character: A Ruffian has NO Place in Arnis.
Discipline: Arnis is the Molder of Discipline.

Etiquette: Learn Respect. Never Impose Your Norms on another person.

Respect: Never Underestimate the Ability of an Opponent.

Self Control: Temper Must be controlled at all times. (Keeping a Clear Head.)

Sincerity: Sincerity is not the All for Victory’s Sake.

Student Loyalty: Ingratitude is Treachery. A Traitor has NO Place in the Forum of Honorable Men and Women.



Presas, Remy Amador, Modern Arnis: Philippine Martial Art, Quilado, Manila
Modern Arnis Publishing Co., 1974

They are from the Founders books. The student may be asked about them. If they can memorize it they are fine. No other requirements are there.

I guess in the end I did listen to them, and apply them in varying levels of success depending upon the given day. But, even here it is not a real documented philosophy and it most definitely is not spiritual.

There are stories of Anting Anting and other beliefs do exist in the FMA's. As I have not looked into it for myself and it was not taught I would have to say it would be up to the individual and not an issue for the art.

As to working / going to school in non-friendly cities, I agree. It can be tough and lead one to look for forms of self-defense most educated people would never even think of. Carrying screw drives up your sleeve (* they are used at work and are a normal tool right. *) , having a baseball bat and glove in your car all the time (* I go to the all sports dome and hit a few honest *) and realizing that you pack your book bags to work as a shield and a bludgeon type weapon or to drop on their feet. (* Oh Sorry about that. *) I am glad you survived it just as I am glad I survived it. Ahh the adventures of a misspent youth.

 

[exile]

Kacey,

I will try to answer your question the best I can, please see below.

(* PS: Thanks for the note in the rep on my Logic *)




Exile,

I agree that I found martial arts as a stress reliever but mainly as a way to learn how not to break (* by strength/fear/adrenaline *) the people I touched who were in general trying to hurt me. The questions were getting boring being repeated so often as well as knowing the officers by name.

I really enjoyed the arts for the movement itself. So one could say I have found a "ZEN" like approach for me. And this is good. But it is no what we teach nor what is expected.

In Balintawak there is no formal philosophy or spirituality. My instructor is Catholic and that is not surprising being from the Philippines.

In Modern Arnis we introduce the students to the following:


They are from the Founders books. The student may be asked about them. If they can memorize it they are fine. No other requirements are there.

I guess in the end I did listen to them, and apply them in varying levels of success depending upon the given day. But, even here it is not a real documented philosophy and it most definitely is not spiritual.

There are stories of Anting Anting and other beliefs do exist in the FMA's. As I have not looked into it for myself and it was not taught I would have to say it would be up to the individual and not an issue for the art.

As to working / going to school in non-friendly cities, I agree. It can be tough and lead one to look for forms of self-defense most educated people would never even think of. Carrying screw drives up your sleeve (* they are used at work and are a normal tool right. *) , having a baseball bat and glove in your car all the time (* I go to the all sports dome and hit a few honest *) and realizing that you pack your book bags to work as a shield and a bludgeon type weapon or to drop on their feet. (* Oh Sorry about that. *) I am glad you survived it just as I am glad I survived it. Ahh the adventures of a misspent youth.

Rich, these strike me as basic rational, sensible and completely responsible guidelines to embed one's knowledge, practice and teaching of martial arts in. They make sense. And I think that it's very important that instructors explain to their students that their actions have consequences that they will have to live with—particularly in view of the way popular culture glamorizes violence and in a sense tells you that you can do what you like as long as the guy you're doing it to is enough of a 'bad guy'.

I particularly like the point I've bolded above in your post. There is nothing antagonistic in any of the traditional MAs to a relationship between the practice of that MA and something with spiritual content; but there's nothing in these MAs which imposes such a relationship either. In one of Isaac Asimov's Foundation series novels, one of the characters says to another something like, 'You are getting mystical, and I always find it difficult to penetrate another person's mysticism', and boy, is that ever true.

In a way, I like to think the the kind of experience you had, and that I had when I was a student in New York City, are similar in certain respects to what early MA students had to cope with: they were largely reasonable people who were looking at potential violence of a very dangerous kind and, in order to get on with their lives, did what they had to do to prepare themselves to apply counter-violence. They didn't want to get into fights, but they recognized that the nature of the fights they might have to get into could leave them dead, or severely injured, if they didn't have a few well-thought-out, well-trained tricks up their sleeves. And that's my guess—of course it could be all wrong, but it's compatible with what I've read—as to how they regarded their MAs: a set of highly effective techniques, tricks if you like, to shut a violent attacker down before he knew what hit him. For spiritual depth and enlightenment, they had their own religions. There's a certain danger in romantically projecting our own longings and yearnings onto cultural practices in other societies which have little or nothing in fact to do with those desires of ours (a point implicit in one of tellner's posts above), based in many cases on our own dissatisfactions with the way we live, and our need to identify a morally, or spirtually, or heroically, 'purer' way of life. I think a lot of our eager desire to buy certain myths about the supposedly ancient history of particular MAs comes from the same source... but that's a different topic! :wink1:

 

[tellner]

Morihei Ueshiba and you still don't get am overt lesson about Zen in an Aikido dojo either

You won't even get a covert one. Ueshiba was not a Buddhist and got annoyed when his students did Buddhist practices. He was a follower of the Omotokyo Shinto/Nationalist religion.

 

[Doc_Jude]

As I understand it the spiritual side of aikido came into play after the art was established. The older and more spiritual Ueshiba became the more a part of the art his philosophy became. I believe that is one of the reasons there are such a diverse group of sub-styles of aikido in the world...different takes on the "spiritual" influence on the art.

That was my understanding also. Well, at least after he had been doing Daito-Ryu for many, many years, among other things...

 

[Carol]

While there is some intertwining of philosophy/spirituality in the arts, I prefer to keep my own path a bit separate from my training.

Perhaps because I'd like one person to teach me how to crack a skull and someone altogether different that can help me find absolution for cracking a skull. :lol2:

 

[tellner]

But Carol, isn't combative skill and camaraderie an important part of your spiritual tradition?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Did you just use "overt" and "Zen" in the same sentence???

Oh - where did Ueshiba study zen? I'd like to read up more on that while I am at it.

And here ya go

http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/paloma/Aikido/morihei.html

http://books.google.com/books?as_auth=Morihei+Ueshiba&ots=ZfQgkvebu-&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=author-navigational&hl=en

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=723

http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/paloma/Aikido/artpeace.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iehh1a40IZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccNOiFwOMtY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYlFOIfLhDk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I7riJM16i4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gP8QtryeL0&feature=related


And just as a note; grow up in Japan and you study Zen and Shinto, it is just the way it was and the way it is, it is ingrained in the society.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You won't even get a covert one. Ueshiba was not a Buddhist and got annoyed when his students did Buddhist practices. He was a follower of the Omotokyo Shinto/Nationalist religion.

Since I do not train Aikido or a Japanese MA......

The point being There are no overt spiritual practices in Aikido... which is by many considered somewhat spiritual

Let me rephrase

...you still don't get an overt lesson about Shinto in an Aikido dojo either

 

[Carol]

But Carol, isn't combative skill and camaraderie an important part of your spiritual tradition?

Tradition, yes, but not so much in practice...at least so much in my local diaspora :lol:

 

[tellner]

Drat. And here I was hoping we'd see you riding dressed in mail with a lance, bow and tulwar.