Perhaps a little perspective is in order?

[don bohrer]

Stories like this put into perspective why we train and the amount of hard work we give our training. I remember after watching some early UFC matches I began to doubt the value of my training. My confidence was robbed... from unrealistic conditions most will never encounter. I found that my continued training requires that I believe in what I am training in and why I do it.

Anyway just thought you guys would like to read.

An undercover cops encounter

don

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Don,

A lot of people started questioning what they were doing after the UFC came out. Tons of people got into grappling after that...and that was good. Now stand up skills against grappling are on the ascent, and more knockouts are occuring in the ring with stand up techniques. The pendulum is swinging the other way. And that is good, too. Traditionalists are questioning their methods, and that is good. This is evolution.

In the situation described in your link, ANY martial artist would have found it a sucky situation. Many traditional artists and progressive artists (such as those found in The Octagon of the UFC) would find it difficult to deal with. The guy that might do the best is the non-martial artist who payed a lot of attention in his weapons retention class at the Police Academy and spent time on studying that issue.

I submit that there is validity in any art...but we have to find a proper modern context for the methods. Some things taught in traditional arts are anachronistic. Many methods were designed for a different battlefield in a different age. They might be able to be adapted to the modern age...and some work pretty well across the ages...but one has to study it from the perspective of "current context."

Supporting this argument is the evolution of the UFC. The style of fighting has changed so much and in such a short period of time since it was first conceived that we can clearly see the dynamic I describe. BATTLE EVOLVES. Any student of military history can tell you that.

Does that minimize traditional arts? Well, students at war colleges still study the theories of Jomini, Clausewitz...the tactics of Napolean...their weak points, their strengths. There are truths to be had in old traditions, as long as one doesn't become ossified in one's outlook. Old techniques can be pulled out, dusted off, and used to great effect...and others can be studied with respect for the role they played in days long gone. We just have to have the wisdom to know what needs to stay on the shelf.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[7starmantis]

Very interesting article. I love reading about real events where a persons training in martial arts helped to save their life or the life of someone else. Doesn't matter which system, I still love reading about it. It gives purpose to my own training. I have had to use mine a few times in real life situations, and nothing feels better than after the situation is over, realizing your training is exactly what saved you.


7sm

 

[Avcrad]

I got question regard actions taken in the article...Why the HECK did the guy pull out the gun??? (geez) At that moment, that cop just surrendered all his MA training only to end up making sure he didnt get shot. Without the gun being introduced, he had a clear advantage, but upon pulling out the gun, he was in a fight for his life...Ask yourselves, how many times in your MA training have you actually trained against a guy taking the gun FROM YOU????

What a moron...That cop just introduced a weapon HE was gonna use but ended up having to defend AGAINST IT!

By the way, if you are an avid MA'ist, wouldnt you feel confindent enough in your empty hand abilities and not worry about using a firearm against a crack dealing thug...? So he took your money, so what...! Let go of the money, clock the guy in the throat with a front chop & walk away...End of story...

This is just my cents....

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Cops routinely train in weapons retention.

I took a civilian (which I am) and LEO ITOG class with Steve Tarani and Pat Rogers, and much of the training was weapons retention and preventing a guy from grabbing your gun.

As for him pulling the gun, that was his call. He was outnumbered, felt drawing the weapon was justified, and did so. In that situation any one of the perps could have produced a weapon of their own in the process of the robbery. They already had the advantage. Had one or more of them pulled a knife, his situation would have gone from bad to "Hail Mary" time.



SCS

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Avcrad
I got question regard actions taken in the article...Why the HECK did the guy pull out the gun??? (geez) At that moment, that cop just surrendered all his MA training only to end up making sure he didnt get shot. Without the gun being introduced, he had a clear advantage, but upon pulling out the gun, he was in a fight for his life...Ask yourselves, how many times in your MA training have you actually trained against a guy taking the gun FROM YOU????

What a moron...That cop just introduced a weapon HE was gonna use but ended up having to defend AGAINST IT!

By the way, if you are an avid MA'ist, wouldnt you feel confindent enough in your empty hand abilities and not worry about using a firearm against a crack dealing thug...? So he took your money, so what...! Let go of the money, clock the guy in the throat with a front chop & walk away...End of story...

This is just my cents....

Sorry, but calling the guy a moron is out of line. You weren't there and he was. He's still alive to tell the tale so he did good.

As to "why he pulled the gun?" Several issues are involved in that question. First, his cover was already blown (or would be when backup arrived) and he knew it. Second, these drug dealers who very well may have been armed themselves. Third, as a police officer, his ingrained training is, "something goes wrong, get your weapon in hand." As soon as the guy grabbed his money and they started struggling, he felt (rightly so) that he was in a life threatening situation. Therefore, his ingrained reaction (from training and experience as a cop) was to bring out his lethal force - his firearm.

If you read the article again, he says, "The guy in front of me grabs the money and we started struggling." This implies to me that it wasn't a clean grab. The guy maybe grabbed his wrist or something. I don't know, I wasn't there.

As far as, "clock the guy in the throat with a front chop & walk away...End of story..." - easy to say while reading the account at your computer.

He reacted according to his training (first as a police officer, then as a martial artist). It's not "right" or "wrong" - it's what he did. And he survived. That's the bottom line. Not only did he survive, he got those drug dealers off the street for a while (probably a long while for attempted robbery, attempted murder, and probably assaulting a police officer, resisting arrest, and, if they found any drugs on them, posession and probably posession with intent to sell). So, not only did he survive, he did his job in the process. I got nothing but kudos for him.

Would I have reacted the same? Probably not, because I'm not him and my background/experience/training is different. I don't know, though. I wasn't there. I hope I would do as well, though.

Mike

 

[don bohrer]

Steve,

My sticking point for me was that I am only 118 pounds. The UFC stuff really trashed my perceptions, but only because I have to work harder to make technique work. I found it difficult not to be run over by the bigger dudes during sparring. When training with a resisting partner I always felt like I had to hurt my partner to make them comply. They could usually just use size and strenght on me and it was good enough. I don't have those options.

don

 

[hardheadjarhead]

You don't have what options, Don? I'm not clear on what you're talking about.

SCS

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Avcrad
I got question regard actions taken in the article...Why the HECK did the guy pull out the gun??? (geez) At that moment, that cop just surrendered all his MA training only to end up making sure he didnt get shot. Without the gun being introduced, he had a clear advantage, but upon pulling out the gun, he was in a fight for his life...Ask yourselves, how many times in your MA training have you actually trained against a guy taking the gun FROM YOU????

What a moron...That cop just introduced a weapon HE was gonna use but ended up having to defend AGAINST IT!

By the way, if you are an avid MA'ist, wouldnt you feel confindent enough in your empty hand abilities and not worry about using a firearm against a crack dealing thug...? So he took your money, so what...! Let go of the money, clock the guy in the throat with a front chop & walk away...End of story...

This is just my cents....

I think Avcrad is a little too confident in open hand techniques. Dealing with a true drug dealing criminal such as those in this article, there isn't going to be an open hand fight. You see, the mentality of these guys is not a good sporting fight, but to win, to get what they want fast. That means producing any type of weapon and using it quickly to get what they want, including that guys money. He is a cop he has been trained to produce the weapon, and obviously trained in weapon retention. He did a good job saving his own life, I think.

7sm

 

[Avcrad]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I think Avcrad is a little too confident in open hand techniques. Dealing with a true drug dealing criminal such as those in this article, there isn't going to be an open hand fight. You see, the mentality of these guys is not a good sporting fight, but to win, to get what they want fast. That means producing any type of weapon and using it quickly to get what they want, including that guys money. He is a cop he has been trained to produce the weapon, and obviously trained in weapon retention. He did a good job saving his own life, I think.

7sm

That is a fair assumption, mantis...I AM confident in my empty-hand abilities, but shouldnt every martial artist. I, also, would not have the mentality of a "good sporting fight". You just cant on the street. As martial artists, we have to know there is no such thing as a "fair fight". We should leave the "good sporting fights" for the TKD & point fighting guys. As martial artists, it should also be OUR goal to win, with our lives...Its very fortunate that this cop got out with his life & I'm obviously glad he did so, but it could have easily gone the other way for him.

I guess what I'm trying to say, why should the gun have been introduced??? The perps didnt pull a weapon? What would have happened if the when the cop pulled the gun, the kid on the stairs saw the gun, and pulled his own? He would not have been in a position to defend himself then, with a struggle taking place at the same time....Like I said before, Im meaning to be too critical, just my cents, that's all.

 

[Avcrad]

Originally posted by Avcrad
That is a fair assumption, mantis...I AM confident in my empty-hand abilities, but shouldnt every martial artist. I, also, would not have the mentality of a "good sporting fight". You just cant on the street. As martial artists, we have to know there is no such thing as a "fair fight". We should leave the "good sporting fights" for the TKD & point fighting guys. As martial artists, it should also be OUR goal to win, with our lives...Its very fortunate that this cop got out with his life & I'm obviously glad he did so, but it could have easily gone the other way for him.

I guess what I'm trying to say, why should the gun have been introduced??? The perps didnt pull a weapon? What would have happened if the when the cop pulled the gun, the kid on the stairs saw the gun, and pulled his own? He would not have been in a position to defend himself then, with a struggle taking place at the same time....Like I said before, Im meaning to be too critical, just my cents, that's all.

I meant to say, I dont mean to be too critical...

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Avcrad
I meant to say, I dont mean to be too critical...

Thats cool, and I started to think the same thing when I read it myself. However, if the perp pulled a weapon, its then too late for the cop to pull his own. The idea in a non-civilian situation like this is to produce your weapon first, once someone else pulls a gun, you can't go for your then.

What I was saying about the open hand confidence is that there is a level of overconfidence that can be dagerous. Being confident is ok, I'm extremely confident in my own skill, but I don't have unrealistic expectaions of those skills either.

I think the point is, none of us were there so we can't know what happened exactly, but the fact that I like is that regardless of wether the gun was a mistake, he used his training to escape with his life in tact. That is the good point of the article.

7sm