People who live in glass houses should'nt throw rocks!!

Discussion in 'Horror Stories' started by DAC..florida, Aug 26, 2003.

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  1. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    And I am asking for Proof of he claims you have made against me.

    Nothing more than what you have required of others?

    I think you are a fraud myself. You have something to hide, if you attack me and cannot provide facts of proof. :idunno:
     
  2. marshallbd

    marshallbd Guest

    Must you?


    If you are not concerned then why do you NOT let it go? :asian:
     
  3. Seig

    Seig Grandmaster

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    So, if I am reading what you have just posted correctly, and I am, you arebasing your statements on hearsay.
     
  4. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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  5. marshallbd

    marshallbd Guest

    Wont open...
     
  6. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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  7. Bester

    Bester <font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu

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    So, you have heard all this, yet seen none? Any chance your 'sources' might be wrong, biased, or plain clueless?

    Who is this source? Who are those who are 'pretenders'?
    Let me look at the staff of this forum for a moment.
    Bob Hubbard – blue belt in Modern Arnis. Trains under Tim Hartman, who trained under the founder of Modern Arnis.
    Cthuhlu – another FMA guy under Ray Dionaldo who is an acknowledged expert in Kali.
    Mike Seigel – Kenpoist under Dennis Conatser, who trained under the founder of Kenpo.
    Rich Parsons – Another FMA (under Presas and Ted Buot)

    There was also former admin Arnisador, who trained under Tim Hartman as well.

    So far, I don’t see any frauds here…unless your ‘sources’ are calling Presas, Parker and Dionaldo frauds?

    I don’t feel like trying to figure out who was a mod when, so if you have something to say, do so, otherwise I’d suggest you stop the slandering.

    Now, in digging through those threads I do see that the ‘main zero’ started to target ‘TshadowChaser’.
    In investigating the suggestion, I traced the lineage back.
    TshadowChaser aka Sheldon Bedell student of Master George C. Chartier who was a student of GM Lagarejos. He also trained with the late GM.

    So, who is the fraud here? Bedell, Chartier or Lagarejos?

    Is someone a ‘fraud’ if they add some outside influences?
    If that’s the case, then I guess you’re ‘sources’ are dead on as Hartman’s rep is he brings in different systems. I think even Capoeira. Parker mixed, matched and adapted a wide range of things. No idea on the other FMA mods.

    So, is this that narrow mindset of the ‘if its not Funakoshi its crap’ that so many karateka seem to get when they have missed the message completely? Is it inferiority complexes of those ‘gajin’ trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese? Or just one insignificant flamer trying to seem important rather than impotent?

    Ahh...an anarchist. Now I begin to understand you.

    So, you come here, to slur individuals who can no longer respond, using veiled suggestions, hearsay, and can't back it up with proof?

    Who told you?
    Where is it circulating?
    To whom is it common knowledge? (Common implies a large group, not a small group)
    How big is this supposed ‘boat’? Are we talking a carrier in size with a crew of thousands, or the log ride at 6-flags? Big difference.
    What holes?
    What news?

    You seem to applaud those tactics, so maybe I will chase you down until you talk.


    :jaws:
     
  8. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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  9. KennethKu

    KennethKu 2nd Black Belt

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    lol. Very funny, guys. Fun as it is, I am rather busy getting a new website online at the moment. I will address all the posts (or, may be only just a few lol) in a few days.

    A lot of questions were asked. The funny thing is, all those who are concerned, already knew the answers, as to the "who", 'what' and 'why'. lol. Nevertheless, I will still humor you, if you would give me a moment. lol
     
  10. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    Sir,

    I openly call you a coward.

    I openly call you a fraud and a liar.

    You make statements about me and cannot prove them. You even refuse to reply, other than with veiled insults and or threats or snide remarks.

    You claim you heard things. I claim you do not know what you are talking to.

    This is my opinion of you and those who you hide behind like the little girl in a skirt. You stand up like a big bad man and throw insults and challenges and expect people to just step back and listen to you.

    I would ask for an apology, yet I know those you hang with and they all refuse to admit when they may have made a mistake or even that a issue or arguement might have two sides. You closed little mind is nothing more than that of a coward who makes idle threats and rants and raves. Go home with your friends.

    Yes this might be counter productive, yet right now I feel like making a point.
     
  11. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman Senior Master

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    KennethKu

    Why do you post here if it's such a bad place?
     
  12. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman Senior Master

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    Actully, I just got back from there and it smelled pretty nice.
    :partyon:
     
  13. KennethKu

    KennethKu 2nd Black Belt

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    lol You need to see a shrink, Rich Parsons. You have been trying so hard to pick a fight while being consistently ignored all the time.

    Calling me names is not helping your case. It only reflects on your level of sophistication and maturity. :) (Heck, you can openly call me Elvis for all I care. LOL )

    In any case, you were never in the cross-hair of fraud busting. I don't think anyone even pay any attention to your MA attainment. Sooo, take a chill pill. :)
     
  14. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    So you admit that I did not filter the truth or lie about what happened?

    So, you admit that I was not in the cross hairs, and thereby not a fraud?


    Yes to both?
     
  15. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    The problem is that their presence helped ligitimize many frauds. As you state, they had great knowledge. People would come to this board to hear what they and others like them would say. But so did many frauds who wanted others to marvel at their greatness.

    A person who gives himself an eighth dan does not do so in private. He wants others to admire his greatness. So he goes out and does things to get that attention. Posting on this board as if they were martial arts masters is one of the ways they get the attention they so desperatly crave but do not deserve.

    And they dispense advice and such as if they were eighth dan masters, but they do not have the experience to back it up. These types of people are a major source of bad martial arts knowledge running around. They do not know what they are talking about, but that does not stop them. Take a look at David Schultz's first thread he started. He tries to tell people who speak Japanese fluently that their definition of "soke" is wrong!!!!

    On martial talk, these people can not be challenged when they make statements like this. They can be challenged in the Horror stories forum, but some have decided to just ignore the threads that the questions about them are raised and state that the matter was old news in any other thread it was mentioned- and then complain to the moderators that they were being "ambushed" in other threads.

    Imagine if we could get Dan Insanto to post here. Can you imagine how many people would come here just to read the posts by a guy who best knew Bruce Lee? But, there would probably be a few Virtual Tough Guys who would also come here jsut to post about how they were Lee's true student, unknown to anyone else. Think no one would believe them? I just saw a Rialian booth set up at Kashiwa station last Saturday. If people would believe that crud- they will believe anything.

    So Insanto posts something about Lee. The fraud posts something else. Insanto takes offense because it is so wrong. He is not allowed to challenge the guy and expose him as a liar outside of one thread here in this forum. In every other thread, he can only give his side of the story and hope people understand that he is the only one telling the truth. But the fraud has more time on his hands and posts more and more. Now Insanto looks at a site that is well known because of the advice he gives on it, but the frauds are posting more disinformation than he can correct. So does he stick around or withdraw his participation?

    Robert and the others were not as great as Dan Insanto, and they will be the first to tell you so. But there were people who thought martialtalk was a good site because they were willing to post here. Since the amount of fraudulance was getting more than they could cope with, and the rules prevented them from challenging people whenever they made comments based (supposably) on their skills and experiences, it was a natural choice to withdraw and let people who knew them know that they thought this place was more a source for bad information than good information.

    Sticking around, as you suggest, would only legitimize the frauds they could not expose or confront due to the rules.
     
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  16. marshallbd

    marshallbd Guest

    Now if that were true then half of your recent posts (quite a few of them!) wouldn't be on this forum........That quote is a response to a post you read........If you speak, speak the truth......otherwise.....SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE!!!! :asian:
     
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  17. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Don, there is a difference between those who left, and people like Dan Insanto.

    A couple mind you.

    International recognition
    Many many articles about them in mainstream publications
    An easily verifiable history.

    10 minutes searching on Google will get you a ton of accurate info in him.

    10 minutes searching on Google for you or I will turn up a couple threads on some message boards.

    Big difference.

    20 losers from the 'Soke of the Week club" doing the rubntug here trying to help elevate their latest fee payer to greatness is a bit more evident than watching an acknowledged expert share their knowledge.

    Those 'busters' may be good martialartists...but outside of their small circles, they aren't known quantities. 1 has a reputation as a hot head. Another a reputation for level headed, logical thinking. I prefer to listen to the one who can communicate without resorting to ranting, screaming and threatening.

    We have an advisory board consisting of several individuals who are world renowned experts in their fields, and/or were/are the right hand 'man' of their respective systems founders. The staff here is currently made up of individuals who have earned black belt ranks in their systems, all of which are recognized as 'legit'. Most of the former staff as well are well respected martial artists.

    It is to those people, we should go to with questions of 'legitimacy' and 'authenticity'.
    Not some busy-body nobody who doesn't study the same genre, with a reputation for pot-stirring.

    Half the arguments that were given I can accept, respect and acknowledge.
    The other half don't apply.

    See Don,
    We never said "Don't unmask the fraud".
    We said "Do it within these rules."
    Following rules was too hard.
    Not being allowed to do as they wanted, say what they want, how they wanted to...
    That was the problem.

    1 individual believed that sending profanity ridden emails, email bombs, threats, harassment, and stalking were all ok means to the end.
    Maybe that works on some boards.
    Not here.

    A line must be drawn, rules put in place, and enforced.
    It was, they were.

    The "you only protected the frauds" bit is lame. I'm sorry if those frauds were more intelligent and could better move within guidelines. Not our fault if the busters couldn't prove a point without crossing the lines.

    See Don, there is a right way and a wrong way.
    You can make a post without my email box filling up with complaints from folks about what you said.
    The same can't be true of others being discussed here.

    We wouldn't tolerate the cop who just did what he felt like, or the judge who did the same. If there are rules of conduct for cops, lawyers, and judges...then what is so wrong with rules for 'fraud busting'?

    We simply refused to allow this forum to become a den of anarchy, any-thing-goes warfare.

    Did that cost us some members?

    Yup. About a dozen.

    Did the frauds get free reign?

    Nope. They eventually ran afoul of their need for attention. Without the constant harassment making them seem like victims, their own need for attention revealed them for what they are. They were over time either booted, asked to leave, or left on their own.

    Do we miss the knowledge they had?

    Definately. But, we don't miss the headaches and problems that revolved around some of them.
     
  18. marshallbd

    marshallbd Guest

    What is that?
     
  19. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    Hey Don,

    I understand your points. I just feel that there is a productive way to go about "fraud busting" and a non productive way.

    Example of a productive way:

    This was a thread started by you, Don, here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8086&highlight=RSK

    I didn't pay attention to the entire thread, but I think that this post of yours is a good example of "Fraud Busting" done the right way. You didn't name call or slam, or "stalk" anyone through the internet by slamming them everywhere they post. You presented your evidence in a clear manner, to let people decide for themselves. Not only did you remain within the rules, but your method here is VERY effective.

    Now here is an example of a non-productive way to fraud bust that went against the rules. This is a thread started by a now banned member. I will not post his name, as he is not here to defend himself. The title of the thread was "Your Pathetic."

    This guy resorted to name calling and slamming to try to make his point. Not to mention, when he quoted who he was accusing he took the quote way out of context. Not only was this against the rules, but it was a very uneducated way of going about "fraud busting". Your way was more more effective then this guy.

    I post these to examples to reinforce Bob's point: It's not against the rules to bust frauds, as long as it is done within the rules. RyuShiKan often stayed within the rules, but he also often broke them. When he broke them, threads got locked, and people got spanked. And, the irony is, that when RSK turned inflamatory, the majority of the public's attention became focused on how much of a jerk he was being rather then being focused on the fraud in question. So, breaking the rules has an adverse effect, IMHO.

    I will say, though, out of all the headaches RSK caused the mods., he was only suspended twice I believe, when he did turn inflamatory. Most of the time he toed the line, and wasn't booted.

    Now my second point is regarding the rules themselves:

    This is taken from "forum rules":

    "A member who is rude, excessively negative, or disruptive may receive a warning or may be suspended or banned immediately. Suspending and banning is done at the discretion of the administration team. Any abuse directed at our all-volunteer moderation/administration team, including defying the moderators/administrators to suspend or ban a member, may result in an immediate suspension or ban. Membership on MartialTalk is a privilege, not a right."

    Also, on Fraud Busting:

    "Excessive “Inquisitor” style questioning is not allowed and will be subject to administrative action. If you have had to ask a question more than 3 times, you are most likely running the risk of “excessive’.

    In addition, “Hot Pursuit” actions will not be tolerated. The “Hot Pursuit” is defined as asking the same or similar questions in multiple threads and/or forums.

    Members who become ‘obsessed”, ‘inquisitors’ or ‘interrogators’ will be subject to administrative action. Members who are involved in excessive arguments that disrupt the forum, may be subject to administrative action due to the disruption of the normal operation of this forum"

    This is where I think RSK REALLY went wrong. If you do a search on his name, you'll find that he had a habit of turning most threads into a "fraud busting" mission. He clearly broke the fraud busting policy with his behavior. Not only was this "against the rules," but it degenerated many good discussions into arguements over credentials. And sometimes, he was chasing windmills. This may have been just fine for the 5 or so people who left, but it was not fine for the other couple thousand members.

    I understand that you feel that with the rules and moderation as they are, "Frauds" can speak freely without being called out, which is therefore legitimizing. I disagree. First of all, you can call people out politely. I do it all the time. Besides that, I think that by outing the fraud in the appropriate section will do the job. Sure, not everyone goes to the "horror story" section, but when the mention of "credentials" comes up in another forum, a casual link to another forum where the person was officially "outed" (whether here on MT or elsewhere) should suffice. You show many good examples of posting links appropriately, which I think is a good way to go about it. My point is, there are other ways to bust frauds without chasing them around from thread to thread in an inquisitor-like fashion. The right way is effective in busting them, the wrong way makes people question the "buster" before the "fraud."

    Conclusion?

    I don't know if you, the people who left, or RSK himself will ever agree with me on this issue. The prevailing opinion of the handful of people who disagree with me seems to think that this forum would be better off if it was more lienent with it's "fraud busting" policy. I think that to do so would run the risk of this forum degenerating into an environment that most people don't want to be in. Furthermore, I strongly believe that not only CAN fraud busting be done within the said rules, but it is generally more effective when it is done that way.

    Anyways, that's just how I feel.

    :asian:

    btw...sorry for the lengthy post, for one. For two, I don't habitually bring up people who aren't here, like RSK, but unfortunatily it is pertinent to the conversation.
     
  20. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    1 correction:
    The "Fraud busting Poicy" was formulated in answer to the fraud-busting actions. It wasn't in place specifically for much of the 'wars'.

    The other rules however were. A -great- deal of venom was spewed. Way more than most people would normally take, and a great deal of leeway was given..and abused, by all parties involved. Some of the tactics used would have made the sons of Saddam smile, I'm certain.

    Just as you have the privilage of training in a certain location, or shopping at a certain store, you have the privilage of being a member here. Walk into Sak 5th Ave in full biker gear, swearing like mad, and threatening the counter girl...you want to bet the cops will show up and escort you out? Hell, walk into BurgerKing, throw your burger in the face of the manager and scream 'whats this crap!'....gee, not being treated nicely? Whose fault is that?

    What is the difference if one shows up on an internet forum, full of 'the truth' and starts to beat everyone and everything into the dust?

    None, IMHO.

    Now, we have wasted alot of time here, rehashing a fight that ended over 10 months ago. Mr. Ku has shared his information on how we are all universally hated and loathed by the elite keepers of truth (5 guys in a Kyoto bath house who had too much saki, and a few of their fanclub? We don't know..he's too busy to back his insinuation up with facts.) So, do we rehash old news, or maybe move on?

    I think everythings been said that needs to, so unless mr. Ku would care to educate us, I'm suggesting this be locked and everyone move on.
     
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