people on drugs

[lonecoyote]

How would anyone deal with someone being aggressive towards them who they knew was under the influence of drugs, not marijuana, or being drunk especially but drugs that make people more physically dangerous: Meth, Cocaine, PCP? I knew a guy as a drinking buddy, didn't realize he was a speed freak until I saw him under the influence one time. Scary stuff, hyper awareness, paranoia, super human focus, one might have shot him and he'd still have kept coming. I've heard law enforcement horror stories about people under the influence not feeling pain, being incredibly strong, etc. Are these stories true? What could you do?

 

[Flatlander]

Yes. These stories are true. My Father, Brother in law, and numerous friends are LEO. Very scary stuff. Run. If you can't? Equalizer, and KNOW how to use it. Don't stop. Hopefully your adrenaline pump can match their "narcotic advantage".

 

[Touch Of Death]

How would anyone deal with someone being aggressive towards them who they knew was under the influence of drugs, not marijuana, or being drunk especially but drugs that make people more physically dangerous: Meth, Cocaine, PCP? I knew a guy as a drinking buddy, didn't realize he was a speed freak until I saw him under the influence one time. Scary stuff, hyper awareness, paranoia, super human focus, one might have shot him and he'd still have kept coming. I've heard law enforcement horror stories about people under the influence not feeling pain, being incredibly strong, etc. Are these stories true? What could you do?

First of all avoid people that do this... However, you should alter your targets to reduce mobility. Break his leg or crush the ankle. If you have his arm in a lock, break it; if his hand touches the floor, stomp on it. None of this will stop him from comming but you greatly reduce his ability to hurt you
until you reach safty.
Sean

 

[Cruentus]

How would anyone deal with someone being aggressive towards them who they knew was under the influence of drugs, not marijuana, or being drunk especially but drugs that make people more physically dangerous: Meth, Cocaine, PCP? I knew a guy as a drinking buddy, didn't realize he was a speed freak until I saw him under the influence one time. Scary stuff, hyper awareness, paranoia, super human focus, one might have shot him and he'd still have kept coming. I've heard law enforcement horror stories about people under the influence not feeling pain, being incredibly strong, etc. Are these stories true? What could you do?

That is never a good situation because if it comes to blows, you can't get out of it without seriously injuring or killing your attacker. You could restrain them if you have shackles or if your technique is impeccible (in other words, using little strength), but I wouldn't count on it considering that it can take a multitude of LEO to restrain someone on drugs, and considering that they may break their own limbs to escape your restraints. You can't really rely on going blow for blow with them, as you may crush their nuts or break something, and chances are they won't be able to feel it, so it will not stop them. Your ability to knock them unconsious is also reduced if your thinking along those lines.

So all you have left is what TOD suggested; something that will disable their ability to chase/harm you while you get the F out of their. This could be a knee break or ankle break as was suggested, but you will find that on a crazed attacker, this is not as easy as it sounds. I recomend eyes, because at least if they can't see, then they can't chase you very well.

Then their is knife or gun defense...and well, you know how that'll end up.

As you can see, there is no non-messy solution to this problem other then don't put yourself in a situation to have this problem in the first place.

:asian:

 

[lonecoyote]

Thanks flatlander, ToD, Tuliasan. I agree completely with get the heck out of there, focus on their mobility, or eyes. But, as far as never being around these people, some people have no choice in where they live, they live in neighborhoods where these people walk around all the time, like ghosts. I moved out of a neighborhood where that was starting to happen, but a lot of people couldn't. If all restraint is out the window, because we're fighting for our lives, how about the windpipe? Lord knows I don't want to get in a discussion that would give someone a how to but if I have to kill or maim someone its probably no. 2 on my list.

 

[Cruentus]

Thanks flatlander, ToD, Tuliasan. I agree completely with get the heck out of there, focus on their mobility, or eyes. But, as far as never being around these people, some people have no choice in where they live, they live in neighborhoods where these people walk around all the time, like ghosts. I moved out of a neighborhood where that was starting to happen, but a lot of people couldn't. If all restraint is out the window, because we're fighting for our lives, how about the windpipe? Lord knows I don't want to get in a discussion that would give someone a how to but if I have to kill or maim someone its probably no. 2 on my list.

Windpipe works fine if it disables him. :asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

First of all avoid people that do this... However, you should alter your targets to reduce mobility. Break his leg or crush the ankle. If you have his arm in a lock, break it; if his hand touches the floor, stomp on it. None of this will stop him from comming but you greatly reduce his ability to hurt you
until you reach safty.
Sean

I have to second the mobility issue. Even breaking their wrist, they still come after you, and it might flail at you, only the hand cannot form up or tighten up to cause as much damage as possible.

My response was, to call for back up. Lots of back up. Other Seucirty, and the police would be called. I knew someone was going to get hurt bad, either them or me.

A couple of times with officers, I have also had to help out with the officers approval of course. Numbers help, yet, control is the ultimate issue.

I hope no one ever has to deal with it, yet, I know there will be those who do.
:asian:

 

[Tgace]

A Taser would be nice. Like the others have said, the only thing you can aim for is dysfunction, pain compliance wont work.

 

[Bod]

What are the classic indicators that someone is on such drugs?

I've known a few speed freaks, and it seemed they stared like they were insane. Big eyes. Jerky movement. But is this enough?

If the prosecution asks me in front of a judge and jury why I belted someone in the throat, I'd like to be sure that I was not jumping to conclusions when I say 'I thought he was on drugs because of x, y and z'.

 

[lonecoyote]

I think that's a really good point, Bod. As far as indicators, here's what I've heard, and I'm not in the medical field or in Law enforcement, this is all just what I've gathered from talking to people and reading-Meth binges last for days, and someone on the third day is exhibiting stranger and more intense behavior than someone on the first day. If someone goes for a week they are exhibiting obvious behaviors that one wouldn't have any trouble explaining to a judge, probably. If one goes for a week, and doesn't crash, they become psychotic, paranoid, have hallucinations, and are really insane. Then they crash, sleep for about 3 days and start all over again. Sounds like a living hell to me. Again, though, I've never taken it, never would, only known a few people who've done it, and am not a doctor or police officer so this could be wrong.

 

[loki09789]

What are the classic indicators that someone is on such drugs?

I've known a few speed freaks, and it seemed they stared like they were insane. Big eyes. Jerky movement. But is this enough?

If the prosecution asks me in front of a judge and jury why I belted someone in the throat, I'd like to be sure that I was not jumping to conclusions when I say 'I thought he was on drugs because of x, y and z'.

I would think that the continuous and lethal bezerker attack behavior would be pretty good evidence that you were justified. If the person can be found to be on drugs or a regular drug user (and you are the cleaner boy scout of the two of you before, during and after the actual incident) then it only makes his case worse and yours easier to justify.

In the moment (meaning before, during and after the use of force), if someone poses a reasonable threat it doesn't matter if I have assessed that they are drug altered, mood altered, sleep altered.... I just have to be able to explain/defend/justify my use of force was based on a reasonable indication of danger (consult your local LEO's/County Court attorneys for what that means in your area). If you start throwing around statements like "I knew he was a danger because he was on drugs", and it turns out to be inaccurate - then there is a hole in your justification that legal beagles can tear apart (not to mention the undermining of your character/credibility with questions like "So, how do you know so much about illegal drug use?", "Are you trained in some medical capacity to diagnose drug use, or just a person who watches too much crime drama on TV?").

Simplest thing is to just report action and behavior: "When I tried to walk away, he followed me and grabbed me", "He kept staring at me saying he was going to kick my a**", "He was screaming like a monkey and tearing his clothes off just before he picked up the brick and tried to beat me on the head with it"...or what ever. LEO's know this communication technique in relation to DWI and Blood/Ox testing equiptment and such. Language is powerful stuff.

It is good that people are looking at the full spectrum of what using force in our culture can mean though. When training for self defense I try and consider what I have to do in three major 'arenas' of self defense 'battle':
1. Inside myself (emotional/physiological responses to stress)
2. The threat (person(S) posing a danger, natural disaster, ....)
3. Legal system/Institutions (justifying/defending my use of force/dealing with probate or insurance companies... all the FUN stuff)

 

[FasterthanDeath]

If you think or know the person is on some type of drug, the best advice for me to offer is breaking down their body. Go for the knees, make it so they cant walk. If that doesnt work go for the arms, make it so they cant crawl. 2 Kenpoist in dallas some years back got into a fight with a man on speed and fought him for 14 mins all the way up till the police came. They had broken 47 of his bones and he was still fighting them. So Hit, dodge, and pray. The best bet is to get away, but if not, fight to the death. His or yours.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

If you think or know the person is on some type of drug, the best advice for me to offer is breaking down their body. Go for the knees, make it so they cant walk. If that doesnt work go for the arms, make it so they cant crawl. 2 Kenpoist in dallas some years back got into a fight with a man on speed and fought him for 14 mins all the way up till the police came. They had broken 47 of his bones and he was still fighting them. So Hit, dodge, and pray. The best bet is to get away, but if not, fight to the death. His or yours.

I agree...aim for structurally debilitating targets. Amped up, a pop in the nose will not stop them from coming. Break knees, slam elbows into temples, windpipes, etc. Worry about the legal implications after you have survived the conflict.

D.

 

[TonyM.]

I agree with the above and will add; hit hard, hit often and never turn your back.

 

[Flatlander]

I wonder if hysterical yelling and screaming might not throw them off a bit. Sort of "freak them out". Any thoughts?

 

[Tony]

I was in my local book store over the weekend, looking at the magazine section, specifically Martial Arts and as i was browsing through this magazine one various Martial Arts, some guy who was obviously not all there, possible under the influence of alcohol or drugs began browsing there too and asked me to show him the front cover of the magazine. I wasn't really interested in starting a conversation on Martial Arts with him at all. His manner seemed very eratic, pointing to pictures in the magazine on UFC and K1. I would hate to think if this person studied a Martial Art, can you imagine how dangerous he would be? not only being on drugs but having the skill to hurt people unneccessarily.

The problem with people who are long term drug takers and even if they are not is that they alter your perception and certainly make you less vulnerable to pain. Try applying a pressure point technique to someone who is doped up and even if you break their wrist, they'll still keep coming after you.
I don't envy the Police and other security professionals who have to deal with such people.

 

[lonecoyote]

Hey flatlander, I hear you about freaking people on drugs out but I just can't think it's a good idea to try to out-crazy someone in drug induced psychosis. Who knows what you'll trigger. He might be hallucinating that you're anyone from his ex wife to the ghost of hitler, or that you're saying "stab me, stab me" I think the initial thing to do would be to stay calm before the action starts. Interesting story about browsing the magazines. anyone else have any stories about interactions with people strung out on possibly dangerous drugs.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

This is an interesting read.

A related question (hopefully not a thread gank): has anyone had someone show up at their MA school who was drugged up or otherwise seemed "disturbed", and wanted to train? How did you handle it?

 

[Flatlander]

Hey flatlander, I hear you about freaking people on drugs out but I just can't think it's a good idea to try to out-crazy someone in drug induced psychosis. Who knows what you'll trigger. He might be hallucinating that you're anyone from his ex wife to the ghost of hitler, or that you're saying "stab me, stab me" I think the initial thing to do would be to stay calm before the action starts.

I totally agree with you. I should have clarified, in that I meant once you were engaged, perhaps this might be useful. Like you might distract with a eye shot, then go low line kick, perhaps throwing in some freakin' out might throw them off their game.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

anyone else have any stories about interactions with people strung out on possibly dangerous drugs.

I have lots of stories. I worked as a bouncer at a hip-hop club for little more than three years, spending about two-and-a-half as the doorman. This was your regular "roadhouse" cliche: trashy bar, new-ownership, time to clean house. And we did.:ultracool

One incident that really reflects how drugs and alcohol can effect your perception of "pain" is a situation with two girls, five bouncers, and a bottle of pepper spray (high-grade kind, too). I'll try to summerize to keep it short: Chick fight breaks out in the bar (bottle got thrown); we get them outside and on separate ends of the parking lot; one party leaves and, as they're driving through the parking lot, the other girl jumps back out of her car, runs up to the first car, punches through the driver-side window, grabs a hand-full of hair and starts wailing away. Two of us get there and grab the girl outside the car, meanwhile the girl inside the car freaks out, steps on the gas, and takes us all into a car about three ft. in front of us. One of the bouncers cuts the ignition, and we now have a full-blown cat fight through the window of the driver-side door. Because the fight was in such close quarters, it was hard to get any leverage for lock or bars. So, one of the guys hit'em with mace. . .three times, to be exact, none of which had any effect, whatsoever. We eventually wrestled them away from each other, and spent a couple of minutes trying to convince them not to start fighting again, while we manually untangled their hands from each other's hair. Keep in mind that this story doesn't include the parts their boyfriend/friends, etc. played in this. They weren't too happy about us spraying the girls.

AJ