Partner Training

[Kung Fu Wang]

I find these clips in another forum.

- It doesn't depend on arm contact arm.
- This training include footwork.
- It's much closer to a real fight.
- ...

But the "wrist grabbing" training is still missing here.

What's your opinion on this kind of training?

 

[geezer]

Sorry, I don't really "get it". I see a lot of light, flailing hands at a range too far to hit and no attempt to latch on and close for grappling... I guess I find it lacking in meaningful offensive energy (what Bino was talking about in his last Chi-sau video) and without offense, the defenses seem superfluous. Now, I'm not the most observant guy in the world, so feel free to explain what I'm missing.

 

[dvcochran]

Sorry, I don't really "get it". I see a lot of light, flailing hands at a range too far to hit and no attempt to latch on and close for grappling... I guess I find it lacking in meaningful offensive energy (what Bino was talking about in his last Chi-sau video) and without offense, the defenses seem superfluous. Now, I'm not the most observant guy in the world, so feel free to explain what I'm missing.

Agreed. In the second video, the guy in the blue shirt appears to tap the side of the other guys head or could if he wanted to. So what are they practicing?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I find these clips in another forum.

- It doesn't depend on arm contact arm.
- This training include footwork.
- It's much closer to a real fight.
- ...

But the "wrist grabbing" training is still missing here.

What's your opinion on this kind of training?

I don't like it. This would still be a Style A vs Style A training. Really not a big fan of that. Style A Strikes vs Style A Blocks. I not totally against it, because it helps to touch on and teach concepts, but put in a different style of striking and these guys are going to fail at defending against the different style of strikes. My opinion is that once a student gets to this level of drilling, then they need to drill outside of the box by drilling against different types of strikes which are going to be more common.

As far as this being as close to a real fight. Nope. Not even close. No haymakers, no boxer's jabs, no lean backs, no wild punching. Watch any video of any street fighting and you won't see attacks, defenses, or punching like this. If you take martial arts of any type, then your fight training should always be Style A vs Style B. because the chances of you getting into a style A vs Style A street fight are almost impossible. You're more likely to be in a car accident or shot before that happens.

 

[jobo]

I don't like it. This would still be a Style A vs Style A training. Really not a big fan of that. Style A Strikes vs Style A Blocks. I not totally against it, because it helps to touch on and teach concepts, but put in a different style of striking and these guys are going to fail at defending against the different style of strikes. My opinion is that once a student gets to this level of drilling, then they need to drill outside of the box by drilling against different types of strikes which are going to be more common.

As far as this being as close to a real fight. Nope. Not even close. No haymakers, no boxer's jabs, no lean backs, no wild punching. Watch any video of any street fighting and you won't see attacks, defenses, or punching like this. If you take martial arts of any type, then your fight training should always be Style A vs Style B. because the chances of you getting into a style A vs Style A street fight are almost impossible. You're more likely to be in a car accident or shot before that happens.

Well yes and no, there's is no such thing as a street style, every one has there own, dependent on what they have been watching on television, what previous fight haveTought them and what they consider their main strength to be,

You canT ever cut off all the options and say this is effective for real fights as you have absolutely no idea what they will do. All you can do is try and steer the confrontation so you are fighting to what you consider Are your main attributes rather than theirs. the real skill of a ma, is to be able to dictate the fight, not to let the other guy dictate and deal with it

Whilst wild get makers may feature heavily on you tube, they a) can't be relied upon, as the guy may well have a double jab right hook in his pocket and as a trained fighter wild get makers are the least of your worries, you really shouldn't be getting hit with them unless you get blind sided, they are always telegraphed

In fact You really shouldNt be getting hit with anything that isn't disguised and lightning fast, in which case it's most probably a trained fighter you are up against

Playing slaps, which is what they are doing has benefit in building movement and reactions, even if it's not the whole answer to the conundrum of how to have a real fight

 

[Flying Crane]

It’s a drill that begins to get you comfortable with things coming at you, and the feel of an interaction. It’s not a realistic representation of a fight, but I don’t think it is meant to be.

It has value but like anything, it cannot stand alone in training. There needs to be other tools in the toolbox.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When I said, "It's much closer to a real fight." I compare it with

- WC sticky hand,
- Taiji push hand,
- wrestling grip fight.

IMO, any MA system can develop a partner training like this. For people who train MA for health, performance, inner peace, self-cultivation, This can add some "fun" into their MA training.

If you can respond as fast as your opponent's attack, you should smile in your dream that even money won't be able to buy that kind of happiness for you.

Many MA systems don't have this kind of training. If you have this training, nobody can say that you train MA for health any more.

 

[jobo]

When I said, "It's much closer to a real fight." I compare it with

- WC sticky hand,
- Taiji push hand,
- wrestling grip fight.

IMO, any MA system can develop a partner training like this. For people who train MA for health, performance, inner peace, self-cultivation, This can add some "fun" into their MA training.

If you can respond as fast as your opponent's attack, you should smile in your dream that even money won't be able to buy that kind of happiness for you.

Many MA systems don't have this kind of training. If you have this training, nobody can say that you train MA for health any more.

I think you may be over stating the mental well being advantAges of that exercise, I'm willing to bet a few mill , in the bank, a Porsche and a super model girl friend would do more for my happiness than slapping someone about for half an hour, I could even pay someone to do the slapping for me

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm comparing it to something like this.

3 < 5, but 3 > 1.

 

[DaveB]

I prefer the taichi vid.

It looks like a specific skill building exercise; a skill that fits into a wider framework, not fighting at all.

The videos in the op showed a skill building exercise being done at the wrong distance to be useful. Power, intent etc can come later, but if the blows are landing short all you build is false confidence.

 

[jobo]

But they are landing short coz one guy is going backwards, any blow will be short if your target keeps moving out of range ,
Or

Learn how to move out of range and you will never get punched, that's a really good skill to practise

 

[DaveB]

But they are landing short coz one guy is going backwards, any blow will be short if your target keeps moving out of range ,
Or

Learn how to move out of range and you will never get punched, that's a really good skill to practise

Your only learning if your partner is trying to catch you/cut you off.

 

[jobo]

Your only learning if your partner is trying to catch you/cut you off.

There nothing but empty space behind how could he be cut off, and who says he isn't trying to catch him

It's remarkably difficult to hit someone who is going backwards at the same speed you advancing and impossible to hit someone who is going faster than you

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Learn how to move out of range and you will never get punched, that's a really good skill to practise

No matter how fast that your opponent may attack, a fast backward jump can always help you to recover the distance.

 

[JR 137]

I’m not the biggest fan of push hands and “sticky hands” as a lot of the Okinawan karateka I know call it, but it definitely has its place and I can respect it. My former sensei started getting into it around the time I left his dojo (I didn’t leave because of that), and he’s somewhat recently gotten heavy into it and has trained with Taira Masaji of Goju Ryu. Here’s Masaji sensei’s interpretation of Shisochin kata and partner flow drill. If I were to do push hands/sticky hands, this is the way I’d want to go with it...

 

[lansao]

No matter how fast that your opponent may attack, a fast backward jump can always help you to recover the distance.

You would be better off running away.

 

[JR 137]

You would be better off running away.

Most of the time, sure. But sometimes you want to get back without taking your eyes off a potential attacker. Just about everything’s got its applications, I guess.

 

[lansao]

Most of the time, sure. But sometimes you want to get back without taking your eyes off a potential attacker. Just about everything’s got its applications, I guess.

I mean specifically with respect to this giant backwards leap thing, it's a dangerous thing to coach people to do. If you wanna stay engaged and avoid incoming attack, moving back doesn't have to be the only option. Otherwise, boxing rings would be narrow hallways.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Your only learning if your partner is trying to catch you/cut you off.

I think of it this way as well. For me it's like chess. You only get good at chess when the other person is trying to defeat you. In chess it's either brute force, sacrifice, deception, or all of the above at the right time within the strategy.

A person won't become good in chess if all you do is drill by playing with only pawns or drill by only playing with rooks. The only thing that you will be good at is having a good understanding of how each piece moves individually, but not in the context of all pieces working together on the board within a strategy, against a person who is trying to defeat that strategy or stalemate you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No matter how fast that your opponent may attack, a fast backward jump can always help you to recover the distance.

jumping has a time and place. Not all jumping is the same, some jumps "glide" and stays in the air longer than others. Others jumps are short but don't cover the same distance as bigger jumps. If you mess up on the jump then you'll pay dearly for it. Do it at the right time (appropriate jump at the appropriate time) and you'll be fine. Mess up any of the 2 factors and you'll be in trouble.

The additional difficulty with jumping is that you don't accelerate while you are in the are. The speed that you pushed off with is the speed that you travel. Like everything else, there's more to jumping than just jumping. Ask any long jumper or high jumper on how to jump. I can only assume the complexity would also exist in Martial Arts as well, especially in the context of someone attacking you while you are trying to create distance.

Just my 2 cents