Palm Beach County...Florida

[Don Roley]

Don John, what school are you from? A bonehead comment like that is what gives indies a bad name. Why perpetuate the myth that all non Kan are complete idiots?!

Dave,
I think he is trying to pretend that he is Bujinkan. Note the word "our" in his quote, "You sure do talk a lot of stuff for 6 of our schools being housed in samurai arts...". I don't beleive him and think everything about him is false, including his name.

 

[Bujingodai]

That we agree on.

 

[ninpokai]

I guess Don has as much proof to show as Mr. Grove does..I guess we can all look at him and think....Hmmm I wonder if he know what he is talking about....I sure Mr. Riley your followers here and on e-budo will back you up as much as Ashida kims do him...must really bug you to be in the same class...But I guess that is what happens to those who lack Proof...Don John.

 

[ninpokai]

Don John, what school are you from? A bonehead comment like that is what gives indies a bad name. Why perpetuate the myth that all non Kan are complete idiots?! Do you not think Don is waiting for a comment like that to rip you a new hole? Try some intelligent mature conversation. Some of us argue with Don but generally there is a code of decency to the posts.

I attend a Bujinkan school here in Japan....why does that matter? I just dont think anyone should judge anyone until you have walked a mile in there shoes...and Mr. Riley spoose "Proof this, and Proof that..." so where is his proof in his words I would like to know.....Don John

 

[ninpokai]

That we agree on.

BTW you sure are quick to turn tail and run Bujingodai not much to say...about anyone else backing Mark Grove do you maybe someone should let him in on this little conversation -BugeiKuden

 

[Bujingodai]

Ninpokai, your aguements are inane. Becuase I agreed with Don that your statements are false means very little as to what Mark thinks.
To that point what would it matter. I have feverantly defended Mark he knows how I feel about him and his school, also to that point Mark is not my keeper I can have my own opinion on topics. I am just trying to wrap around what you are saying.
If you are a Booj in Japan, then Don should know you or of you. What dojo are you a part of, Nagase.....Ishizuka tell us. So that we can tell them that you have killed with a sword before, which contradicts Booj laws. I also know because I currently still study under a Booj Shidoshi, so mile walked.
To the indies there are few people that defend them online as much as I do. They know where I stand. And turning tail and hide, no. I think Don is an arrogant Jackwipe at times. It does not mean that I do not respect his intelligence or agree with him once in a while.

Hey Don John, it's time to come in the streetlights are on! Grow up. You sound like kid.

 

[Don Roley]

Dave,
It is obvious ninpoopkai is a troll and not to be taken seriously. Why bother responding once everyone knows that? Let him vent. As long as I know no one will take him seriously I have no problems with it. You should be proud to be insulted by an obvious idiot like him.

 

[OUMoose]

FYI: I have no knowledge of Ninjitsu, but just from a general MA PoV, this was in the original post.

Want to learn true self-defense?

That tipped me off right away that there was a problem...

 

[ToraSame]

FYI: I have no knowledge of Ninjitsu, but just from a general MA PoV, this was in the original post.



That tipped me off right away that there was a problem...

Why would that tip you off to a problem, I was referring to how that most MA claim to teach defense when in reality they only teach KATA or competition type fighting that are based around rules what does this got to do with weather or not mark knows his stuff?

Ninpokai - while I like the defense enough is enough they choose to walk blindly...just leave it at that...

 

[ninpokai]

Ninpokai - while I like the defense enough is enough they choose to walk blindly...just leave it at that...

No this is crap why should I not ask where is Don Riley's proof all he every says is where the poof, so Mr. Riley where is your proof that you know so much that GOD himself has given you that power to debunk every know Ninjutsu instructor short of Hatsumi...It is true that six schools of the Bujinkan, which I am a proud member to be, are housed in the Samurai Military arts in fact Takamatsu Himself very first training, and his blood family were Samurai...so don’t go around boasting that we are such high and mighty ninja...we are not we are a cross breed between Ninja and Samurai...Like it or not that is the way it is...to bad you do not choose to see your own reality, but it does explain you actions here and on other boards...and you can Debunk me all you want... one day people will find out you are really nothing but some Fat PC geek sitting behind a pile of books, and a keyboard. But that is sad that you don’t even know that...The way is true to the insightful.

 

[Taimishu]

I have read this and other threads like it and my main problem seems to be that every MA is professed to be the greatest by its adherants.
Now I dont know and have no intention of trying to say which is best just that I feel that every MA has something to teach and every instructor, yes even Ashida Kim, has a point.
In my case I train in Iaido and admit that it has merit as self defense in extremely limited circumstances ( I dont wear my Katana in the street) but it might be of use within those limited circumstances.

Also my instructor had slightly unclear lineage as far as credentials went, so what he was able to teach me and others in safety and to a reasonable standard. Whether the Japanese masters would say it was correct is another point but as I am unlikely to go to Japan or see any of the masters here I am happy with what I have learnt.

My point that as long as the people who are being taught are happy and they know that their art is not the greatest thing since ice cream what is it to do with us.

Ok sorry for the rant but dont we have better things to do?

( puts on Nomex suit)

David

 

[heretic888]

Why would that tip you off to a problem, I was referring to how that most MA claim to teach defense when in reality they only teach KATA or competition type fighting that are based around rules what does this got to do with weather or not mark knows his stuff?

What makes you think that kata training has nothing to do with self-defense?? Or, would you make the claim that the training of the various Japanese koryu, which have been tested through the years of civil wars in that country, is just "playing around"??

No this is crap why should I not ask where is Don Riley's proof all he every says is where the poof, so Mr. Riley where is your proof that you know so much that GOD himself has given you that power to debunk every know Ninjutsu instructor short of Hatsumi...It is true that six schools of the Bujinkan, which I am a proud member to be, are housed in the Samurai Military arts in fact Takamatsu Himself very first training, and his blood family were Samurai...so don’t go around boasting that we are such high and mighty ninja...we are not we are a cross breed between Ninja and Samurai...Like it or not that is the way it is...to bad you do not choose to see your own reality, but it does explain you actions here and on other boards...and you can Debunk me all you want... one day people will find out you are really nothing but some Fat PC geek sitting behind a pile of books, and a keyboard. But that is sad that you don’t even know that...The way is true to the insightful.

OH. MY. GOD. :mst:

 

[ToraSame]

What makes you think that kata training has nothing to do with self-defense?? Or, would you make the claim that the training of the various Japanese koryu, which have been tested through the years of civil wars in that country, is just "playing around"??

my problem with kata is that it teaches you that those 2,3,4 or 5 players will be attacking that way all the time...and I disagree with that you should train to expect various attacks not a front kick from the first uke, a punch from the uke behind you, then a spinning kick from the uke to the left of you...when in reality they are all going to jump you at the same time....but that is IMO if you feel what you are learning now keeps you alive on the street then good, my only point was that I feel Kata and competition type techniques will not protect you from 5 people jumping you all at the same time use whatever pops into there mind...but once again that is my opinion and has nothing to do with weather or not mark knows his stuff...

 

[heretic888]

my problem with kata is that it teaches you that those 2,3,4 or 5 players will be attacking that way all the time...and I disagree with that you should train to expect various attacks not a front kick from the first uke, a punch from the uke behind you, then a spinning kick from the uke to the left of you...when in reality they are all going to jump you at the same time....but that is IMO if you feel what you are learning now keeps you alive on the street then good, my only point was that I feel Kata and competition type techniques will not protect you from 5 people jumping you all at the same time use whatever pops into there mind...

No offense, man, but it doesn't sound to me like you've been taught "the kata method" very well. I don't know of any good teacher that would actually present kata as "how you and your opponents will actually move in a fight". Their tools to teach principles of movement, not self-defense scenarios.

Of course, this is also just my opinion. :asian:

 

[ToraSame]

What makes you think that kata training has nothing to do with self-defense??

didn't you just say this ^^^^

Their tools to teach principles of movement, not self-defense scenarios.

Then you say this^^^^, personally I have not done kata since I was very young and remember it be a laid out scenario, and never once did it help defend my butt on the street, when I took Ninjutsu, for many years, any fight I got into which were very few thanks to the teachings I learned awareness, I was able to save myself, in what any other art I surly would have been mesmerized by the first strike, if it hadn't been for my training...I am not trying to down any other art, all I was say is most other art(other than ninjutsu) not all, but most really do not teach you to defend yourself in a reality based scenario..unfortunately every one feels the Mark grove does not know what he is talking about, and visiting the site, if I had never trained with him I would probably agree, I feel the way the site is laid out he sets himself up for all of your miscalculations...but the in class training is not totally what you see on the site...yes the site is flashy, and yes Mark can do all of that, and if anyone wanted to learn it they could, but the Kurai Kotori system is not housed around the flashiness it really is a good system...but until you go and see for yourself I am wasting my breath...it really is too bad that people here and at other forums judge what they do not know...and never have seen for themselves...why would Dave Gibb a budo taijutsu dojo instructor get on line and say yes Mark is good at what he does, and his student kick butt, come on guys really he is a BUJINKAN INSTRUCTOR does this not add up for you...there are definitely too many sheep on the Internet today that follow the leader in fear of repercussions, rather than actually learning for themselves but hey, really it is your loss not mine...

 

[Don Roley]

Wow,
That last post by Torasame reminds me a lot of this article by Martialtalk member Phil Elmore. He even used almost the exact same language about sheep that Sharp Hil uses in this article as well.

I would jus tlike to point out that the way Torasame (which does not mean Tiger Shark as he says) uses the term "kata" is the way it used in Karate and such, not the way that Japanese ninjutsu uses the terms. It would kid of be nice if the people who decide that they like what see in ninjutsu that they use the term without formal training would at least use the same terminology if they are going to bless us with their wisdom.

 

[Bujingodai]

Just to clear something up, though I am a Yudansha in the Kan, and alot of what I do and show is what I did in the Kan, and still train in. I am not a liscenced Bujinkan instructor.

Not yet.

 

[Don Roley]

Just to clear something up, though I am a Yudansha in the Kan, and alot of what I do and show is what I did in the Kan, and still train in. I am not a liscenced Bujinkan instructor.

Not yet.

Of course Dave, you not having a liscense to even teach in the Bujinkan and yet starting your own style is going ot set you up for some slams. I thought you had a shidoshi-ho. You might want to ask the guy you consider your Bujinkan instructor to give you one if you and he (she) feels yo are worthy.

On the other hand, since you are not qualified to teach Bujinkan, it is kind of admirable that you don't try to attach the Bujinkan name to it. I go off on people that add things to what Hatsumi teaches but still call it Bujinkan. I, of course, would prefer that you use a different name that does not resemble the Bujinkan name and call it something like Goshinjutsu, or just "Dave style."

 

[Bujingodai]

OK those are fair enough points. I accept that. Mind you the style sort of came together, I won't be so bold as to state that I formed a system. I am just not that experienced, I am still very much learning. I did form the school format and organized the "system" so to speak. I do believe I am set apart in the indie sense, the term Ninjustu to me I am attached to in spirit and train that way. As well as I can.

Now the other thread was locked but I will answer here. It really doesn't matter what I think of these schools. Really. It's just my opinion, very little I defend until I have met with them. Or seen them. There are some indie schools that personally disgust me, some depress me. I won't slam them but I won't defend them. I have never trained in Saito. I know Steve from my board,, there he is always polite and intelligent. Ken I do not know. Now yes he was getting very colourful and irrational at times, but combating you in a war of words can get a bit hot for the defence. I speak from experience.

In all honesty, I have seen as much corruption, misrepresentation, crap skill, back-stabbing etc etc in the Bujinkan. Much of the time I think the warrior training hall needs to clean it's own act up before attacking others. but that is my personal experience. I have trained in many Kan dojo, and 1 or 2 Genbukan.
It always blew me away and the lack of consistancy in the dojo, format difference, politics and the amout they all hated each other.
When I went to the Tai kai I saw Shihan on stage, that personally moved like orange belts. I am no expert but it was embarrassing.

So all the problems that occur in the indie groups are very much prevalent in the kan with the exception of the lineage proof issue. Such is why I do not claim it. That really sets yourself up for a pile.
I however regardless of group will always meet them first, If you wish I will send you an email with my personal view of all the ones I have met.

For example, Sensei Mike Stimmler. In Gettysburg. I am meeting him in May, he is 10 mins from my teacher whom I am off to see at the same time. He doesn't claim to have a teacher, he claims to have researched it and so on. OK I can see where that will draw critique no doubts. But i still want to meet him and get my own opinion. He may be a super cool guy who hasn't a clue, he may be very good, he may be an ***. So far he seems really nice. But we'll see right?

Some of the people that have been attacked on E-Budo like Jackson Wagner, who never claimed Ninjutsu, only that some Ninjutsu elements were in some of the sword systems he learned. I have trained with Jackson on multiple occasions and would love to see a detractor come at him on the mats for the "real" proof. He is without a doubt the most effective MA'st I have met. I have seen the video proof of his teaching liscence from Obata and Kimeda as well.

But again that is my opinion.

 

[Don Roley]

Ken I do not know. Now yes he was getting very colourful and irrational at times, but combating you in a war of words can get a bit hot for the defence. I speak from experience.

Dave,
The other thread was closed for a reason and I don't think we should be spreading gasoline here just after the last one was snuffed out. So I am not going to respond to a lot of what you wrote other than the above quote.

I can tell you with complete honesty that no matter how hot the screaming matches between you and me got, you never, ever acted unstable, decietfully or dishonorably.

We don't exactly get along, but I have to say that you fill none of the profiles Sharp Phil wrote, which is probably why he took the time to review and praise that tape you sent him.