Pacemakers and Martial Arts

[JowGaWolf]

Are there any instructors who have had students who have pace makers? Does anyone here have a pacemaker and train martial arts?

From my limited research. I understand that the doctor makes the final call and determines what the person can or cannot do in terms of physical activity. I also know that sparring and any type of physical contact that puts the chest at risk for being struck is also out of the question. But beyond that I know nothing about a pacemaker.

The reason I ask is because a potential student is asking if they can train with the class. What are the risk for the school?

 

[Jenna]

I have a pacemaker and but I am not an instructor so it is perhaps not the pov you are seeking? I think whomever indemnifies your school is best to ask no? With your kind of art -is full contact yes?- there is a risk of damage to this student. Can you protect that student as you would any other in your class against that? Hard to avoid strikes to chest/breast area maybe?? I was supposed to avoid ALL contact sport activities with mine.. nuh-uh.. and I am still not dead pffft!

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have a pacemaker and but I am not an instructor so it is perhaps not the pov you are seeking? I think whomever indemnifies your school is best to ask no? With your kind of art -is full contact yes?- there is a risk of damage to this student. Can you protect that student as you would any other in your class against that? Hard to avoid strikes to chest/breast area maybe?? I was supposed to avoid ALL contact sport activities with mine.. nuh-uh.. and I am still not dead pffft!

The contact part isn't a problem, our regular classes basically consists of forearm contact to the limbs, ankle and wrist areas. The only accident that we had beyond that was a brother(child) who elbowed his sister in her chest when working on elbow drills. Good thing their father trains with them. Beyond that the only real opportunity to hit someone in the chest is during sparring, which he won't be doing. So things like that can be managed. My main concern is the physical activity (non-contact) stuff we do. We get a lot of aerobic workout with our techniques and it affects each student differently. For example, we have a significantly overweight student who just joined. I originally thought she would pass out, but she's actually doing really good in every thing. There are a few things we have to create alternatives for, but that's more of a leg strength issue than a size issue. In the past we have had a woman who didn't have the weight problem, but walking around our room and doing simple stances were really difficult for her and at times, I thought she was going to pass out. I've only seen people sick with a cold perform as bad.

I'm just totally ignorant about pacemakers beyond "don't hit them in the chest" and I don't know if strenuous activity is an issue, and what is considered strenuous in the context of a pacemaker?

 

[jks9199]

Perhaps a discussion with his doctor is in order? That's the person with both general knowledge about pacemakers and specific knowledge about the student/patient.

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[JowGaWolf]

Perhaps a discussion with his doctor is in order? That's the person with both general knowledge about pacemakers and specific knowledge about the student/patient.

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Oh yeah. he's going to get that and we'll get a signature from his doctor as well. I sent the potential student an email and recommended that he visits us so that he can record our training. This way the doctor can see exactly what his student is getting into. I don't want the doctor to think, that what we do is the same type of training that many TKD and Karate Schools do around here. Our punching is different and our conditioning is different so the doctor needs a clear picture of just what it is. That part I'm actually comfortable with because it's the doctor making the decision. But as an instructor I need to have a better understanding of what not to do. The reason why is because students will do things that they shouldn't do and if he is like most students I need to be educated a little more about Pacemakers and strenuous exercise. Things I should look for as being bad signs etc.

Right now in my mind it's like this guy is going to have a heart attack at any time, so I need to be a little more informed about my fears.

 

[Jenna]

The contact part isn't a problem, our regular classes basically consists of forearm contact to the limbs, ankle and wrist areas. The only accident that we had beyond that was a brother(child) who elbowed his sister in her chest when working on elbow drills. Good thing their father trains with them. Beyond that the only real opportunity to hit someone in the chest is during sparring, which he won't be doing. So things like that can be managed. My main concern is the physical activity (non-contact) stuff we do. We get a lot of aerobic workout with our techniques and it affects each student differently. For example, we have a significantly overweight student who just joined. I originally thought she would pass out, but she's actually doing really good in every thing. There are a few things we have to create alternatives for, but that's more of a leg strength issue than a size issue. In the past we have had a woman who didn't have the weight problem, but walking around our room and doing simple stances were really difficult for her and at times, I thought she was going to pass out. I've only seen people sick with a cold perform as bad.

I'm just totally ignorant about pacemakers beyond "don't hit them in the chest" and I don't know if strenuous activity is an issue, and what is considered strenuous in the context of a pacemaker?

Yes that is a lot for you to be thinking of in terms of your student safety I grant you. I am sorry I am not a help in that respect still I am grateful to know you are creating alternatives for your students as individuals based on their abilities! I like that one sign of a good teacher I think x As for pacemaker yes absolutely by design it will modulate the heart rhythm proportionally during exertion, and all other things being equal ought not to be any issue in that regard for you or your student You know I am sure though how many time accidental contact can happen in training hall irrespective of intention for it not to! You are right to seek advice Wishes to you xo

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes that is a lot for you to be thinking of in terms of your student safety I grant you. I am sorry I am not a help in that respect still I am grateful to know you are creating alternatives for your students as individuals based on their abilities! I like that one sign of a good teacher I think x As for pacemaker yes absolutely by design it will modulate the heart rhythm proportionally during exertion, and all other things being equal ought not to be any issue in that regard for you or your student You know I am sure though how many time accidental contact can happen in training hall irrespective of intention for it not to! You are right to seek advice Wishes to you xo

Thanks for your input as someone who has a pacemaker. I'll keep doing research on pacemakers and see if I can discover any forums with people who have pace makers as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have a pacemaker and but I am not an instructor so it is perhaps not the pov you are seeking? I think whomever indemnifies your school is best to ask no? With your kind of art -is full contact yes?- there is a risk of damage to this student. Can you protect that student as you would any other in your class against that? Hard to avoid strikes to chest/breast area maybe?? I was supposed to avoid ALL contact sport activities with mine.. nuh-uh.. and I am still not dead pffft!

Jenna, would you expect any problems with rough falls? Most of our throws produce more impact than those in Ueshiba's Aikido (different throw setup, plus different ukemi). I'd be concerned about the impact (pun intended) a hard fall might have.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna, would you expect any problems with rough falls? Most of our throws produce more impact than those in Ueshiba's Aikido (different throw setup, plus different ukemi). I'd be concerned about the impact (pun intended) a hard fall might have.

Well the unit have a wire or sometime multiple wire into the heart and this can itself be damaged by shoulder application maybe katadori ikkyo you know, the thing you can feel it displace and but there is worry it get squished between clavicle and top rib yes? throws and jarring I offer only personal experience and have not had no problems resulting then again I am not so burly and hardcore like yous NGA people that break poor uke apart like Lego man.. just kiddin wit cha

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well the unit have a wire or sometime multiple wire into the heart and this can itself be damaged by shoulder application maybe katadori ikkyo you know, the thing you can feel it displace and but there is worry it get squished between clavicle and top rib yes? throws and jarring I offer only personal experience and have not had no problems resulting then again I am not so burly and hardcore like yous NGA people that break poor uke apart like Lego man.. just kiddin wit cha

LOL

Okay, so I can think of some techniques that would probably be off-limits for safety. More the ones that would put direct pressure during the setup (mugger's throw/seio nage, shoulder throw, etc.). And maybe keep the throws moderated. Obviously, this would need some input from the doctor, but it's nice to have some feedback from someone who better understands the mechanics of the movements involved.

 

[Danny T]

Have two with pacemakers.
One is a beast!! Runs 3 miles a day, trains hard, technical sparring often.
The other only does BJJ trains often but moderately, takes several breaks and only works off his knees, never standing.
Both are good students and we are happy to have them.

 

[Saheim]

I just went through a 2 week "Defensive Tactics" course and a 3 week "Officer Wellness" course, with a man who was on the high side of 50 and had a pace maker. We ran (A LOT), did some striking, considerable amount of falling, grappling, etc. I saw that ol' guy get dropped HARD, I also had trouble keeping up with him (on the running). He even got tazer'd at the end of all of it. He's fine. Individual results may vary

 

[Dirty Dog]

Having a pacemaker is in no way a contraindication to MA training. Once healed from the procedure and cleared to exercise, you're good to go. There are a few positions (i.e. both arms pulled back behind you) that could theoretically cause excessive stress on the leads (although I have not seen a single case study in which this has actually happened, it is at least theoretically possible) and it would be a good idea to wear chest protection to prevent impacts from damaging the implant (and to protect you, because impact to the implant will hurt a LOT more than impact to body structures).
I do not recommend being tazed. The ~ 5 second jolt from a tazer is absolutely capable of causing inappropriate reversion pacing or the false detection of V-Fib if the implant has defibrillator capabilities. It is probably not going to adversely impact pacing of bradycardic arrhythmias, and if it falsely interprets a sinus rhythm as something like A-Fib, the resultant pacing should hurt anything. False V-Fib usually will not trigger defibrillator firing, since the threshold is most often longer than this (about 9 seconds most commonly). But that's an awful lot of maybes and usuallys and probablys.
And given that the tazer can (though it's not common) induce abnormal rhythms (including lethal ones) even in an otherwise healthy heart, voluntarily being tazered when you already need a pacemaker is, in my personal and professional opinion, a gigantically stupid thing to do.

 

[Saheim]

Having a pacemaker is in no way a contraindication to MA training. Once healed from the procedure and cleared to exercise, you're good to go. There are a few positions (i.e. both arms pulled back behind you) that could theoretically cause excessive stress on the leads (although I have not seen a single case study in which this has actually happened, it is at least theoretically possible) and it would be a good idea to wear chest protection to prevent impacts from damaging the implant (and to protect you, because impact to the implant will hurt a LOT more than impact to body structures).
I do not recommend being tazed. The ~ 5 second jolt from a tazer is absolutely capable of causing inappropriate reversion pacing or the false detection of V-Fib if the implant has defibrillator capabilities. It is probably not going to adversely impact pacing of bradycardic arrhythmias, and if it falsely interprets a sinus rhythm as something like A-Fib, the resultant pacing should hurt anything. False V-Fib usually will not trigger defibrillator firing, since the threshold is most often longer than this (about 9 seconds most commonly). But that's an awful lot of maybes and usuallys and probablys.
And given that the tazer can (though it's not common) induce abnormal rhythms (including lethal ones) even in an otherwise healthy heart, voluntarily being tazered when you already need a pacemaker is, in my personal and professional opinion, a gigantically stupid thing to do.

He didn't take the full 8 second ride (it is not 5). Doing so was optional. Several parts of the tazing were optional, some were NOT. Everyone (who wanted to remain employed) was going to take a total of 3 "touch" tazings, one of which would be on the chest under the collar bone. Him and I both asked to have it done on the RIGHT side due to heart issues. They agreed.

As far as having both arms behind your back, while laying face down.... Yep, we did that to him too. It didn't pull any wires loose. This part was not optional.

He is the only person I have trained with that had a PM (that I knew about). After seeing his performance, I do not view people who have them any differently. I would try not to strike it, directly, if we were sparring. Other than that, I would expect the same out of them as everyone else.

 

[Dirty Dog]

He didn't take the full 8 second ride (it is not 5). Doing so was optional. Several parts of the tazing were optional, some were NOT. Everyone (who wanted to remain employed) was going to take a total of 3 "touch" tazings, one of which would be on the chest under the collar bone. Him and I both asked to have it done on the RIGHT side due to heart issues. They agreed.

As far as having both arms behind your back, while laying face down.... Yep, we did that to him too. It didn't pull any wires loose. This part was not optional.

He is the only person I have trained with that had a PM (that I knew about). After seeing his performance, I do not view people who have them any differently. I would try not to strike it, directly, if we were sparring. Other than that, I would expect the same out of them as everyone else.

So he got lucky. That doesn't make it any less stupid.

 

[jks9199]

He didn't take the full 8 second ride (it is not 5). Doing so was optional. Several parts of the tazing were optional, some were NOT. Everyone (who wanted to remain employed) was going to take a total of 3 "touch" tazings, one of which would be on the chest under the collar bone. Him and I both asked to have it done on the RIGHT side due to heart issues. They agreed.

As far as having both arms behind your back, while laying face down.... Yep, we did that to him too. It didn't pull any wires loose. This part was not optional.

He is the only person I have trained with that had a PM (that I knew about). After seeing his performance, I do not view people who have them any differently. I would try not to strike it, directly, if we were sparring. Other than that, I would expect the same out of them as everyone else.

Taser X26 or X2 is a 5 second ride, unless tbe operator extends it. In a training situation, there's no reason to extend it. Nor does Taser, Inc. require you to take a hit unless attending a Master Instructor class. Taser will tell you that tbere is a non-zero, but low probability of the pulse interacting with a pacemaker or causing other cardiac complications. That said, as an instructor nyself, i probably would not administer a controlled exposure to someone with a pacemaker, except perhaps a drive stun to an extremity. Risk vs benefit balance...

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[Saheim]

Taser X26 or X2 is a 5 second ride, unless tbe operator extends it. In a training situation, there's no reason to extend it. Nor does Taser, Inc. require you to take a hit unless attending a Master Instructor class. Taser will tell you that tbere is a non-zero, but low probability of the pulse interacting with a pacemaker or causing other cardiac complications. That said, as an instructor nyself, i probably would not administer a controlled exposure to someone with a pacemaker, except perhaps a drive stun to an extremity. Risk vs benefit balance...

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You're a Taser instructor? Cool! I've never used an X26, I was certified when we still carried M26's. I thought I remembered those being 8 seconds, no?

The agency I'm with now does not use "Taser" brand products, I use that term generically, like Frisby. I do not remember the name of our handheld (StunTech I think), they are for touch only (non dart firing). We also use E.I.D.'s (electonic immobilization xevices) such as the Bandit sleeve (pretty sure that one is 8 seconds) and the belt. We also use electric riot shields. Wearing the sleeve was optional as was being hit with the shield. The touch tasing was required and the instructors were aware of his condition. I guess this could be considered "voluntary" as he chose to work there, but it was a condition of employment as much as getting OC'd was.

 

[jks9199]

Taser is a very specific brand; they rightfully push that. The Taser ECW relies on proprietary shaped pulse technology to generate neuromuscular incapacitation (NMI) when the darts are deployed, or when they pulse is otherwise distributed through enough of the body. Nobody else has the same technology; one imitator lost a lawsuit on the technology in the last couple of years. Everything else out there currently, and even the Taser in pure drive stun mode, is a pain compliance weapon. It's a (lower powered) cattle prod. Taser has tons of medical research and hundreds of thousands of exposures to support their claims. The Taser civilian models (Pulse and X26C currently) do have longer duration rides (up to 30 seconds), but in compensation, the amperage and voltage are tweaked differently, too. I don't remember ever having longer than a 5 second duration, outside the civilian models.

Going back to the original topic -- as long as a student's doctor okayed it, and I'd probably want to discuss it with the doc a bit myself directly, I see no reason for them not to train. Perhaps sparring is out... but that's why I'd want the doctor's input. I just don't know enough.

 

[wingchun100]

Are there any instructors who have had students who have pace makers? Does anyone here have a pacemaker and train martial arts?

From my limited research. I understand that the doctor makes the final call and determines what the person can or cannot do in terms of physical activity. I also know that sparring and any type of physical contact that puts the chest at risk for being struck is also out of the question. But beyond that I know nothing about a pacemaker.

The reason I ask is because a potential student is asking if they can train with the class. What are the risk for the school?

I have to be honest: when I read the subject line, I thought this was a spoof of the "transgenders and martial arts" thread.