‘outsider’ question 2, “practicality of ‘weapons first’ training in modern America

[Brother John]

How’s THAT for a wordy subject-line?
I already asked about “Kombatan” before, and everyone who responded helped me to understand. I’ve also done much of my own research on-line… but in the end, it’s best to get it from the horses mouth. (in other words, I’m here asking you guys)

Please understand, I don’t mean to ‘question’ your art(s) ability or legitimacy… I believe that all arts are ‘practical’ w/in their given context. But outside of their given context, does the practicality remain? For instance, a knife and stick fighting art on a jungle island that is frequented with aggression and violence seems ultimately practical. However, does that practicality still apply when that art is transplanted to North America where one would seldom be allowed to legally carry a knife (let alone a short-sword like a Kris, or even two folders) and where clubbing an attacker with a cane would seldom be seen as justified force in a court of law.

I understand that the empty hand aspects of the Filipino martial arts are quick, elusive and powerful. I don’t have an issue with this, but isn’t it very much secondary to the predominant practice of blunt and bladed weapons? What percentage of work is given to each, generally? 75% weapons / 25% empty hands? Just a guess there.

Secondly, I also understand that the movements and principles used in the blunt and bladed work can be translated into empty hand responses…I like that, but it’s the secondary training (isn’t it?), and I’d think that it takes a good deal of experience first.

Please know that I am on the outside looking in, my thorough ignorance on these subjects is probably astoundingly deep compared to even the lowest ranking/neophyte FMA’ist. I don’t mean to offend, merely to cure my ignorance.

Your Brother (seeking understanding)
John

 

[Rich Parsons]

John,

Good Question(s) and understandable in my mind.

In Modern Arnis there are both stick and empty hand training and it depends upon the instructor on how much of what you get. Yet, in my case, I like to teach some of the empty hand stuff for self defense right away. So, I cannot put a percentage on it for you.

In Balintawak, it is stick training with the translations as you maentioned. Yet the timing involved in dealing with a weapon increases the overall timing of all your skills and atribrutes. Yet for pure self defense I do not recommend Baliantawak to beginners. In my mind it takes longer to be able to defend yourself, even though it might in the long run develop really good attributes and technique and timing.

So, as to the practicality, I personally know that I have been assulted by Baseball Bats, Golf Clubs, 2x4's, axe's screw drivers, knives, cars and trucks, tire irons, improvised weapons of all sorts of makes and designs. By understanding the dynamics of the weapon training, and how to use it (* And I am not the first nor the last to make these comments *), one can better defend themselves against the weapon, or truly understand the damage the weapon can do. Now, I admit the last confrontation I had was years ago, yet it was still good to have the training I did have at that time.

Now, one could argue that weapons second could give this understanding, and this woudl be true. Yet, the instance could also be turned into a very secondary issue with the weapon. Maybe just a form at Black belt. NO real understanding of what could happen. i.e. A striking and kcking art (* Generic term *) who may or may not train in weapons comes across a guy with a weapon. You try to swap techniques with this guy. If he did not have a weapon your blocks and strikes would be doing damage to his body. Yet with the weapon everytime he blocks with it he is not receiving the damage.

So, back to practicality of weapons first??? Do you think you will be attacked by a pool cue? or Tire Iron? or Baseball Bat? If so it makes sense. If you never expect to get attacked at all, then the art does not matter. It matters on the instructor and the work out you are getting. If you do expect to get attacked, and expect that most of the time the guy will not grab his mag lite or bat or pool cue then empty hands training makes lot of sense.

I really do not like to say this, It depends on the person and why they are training. And even in this case some will choose weapons first because they think they are cool or just want to learn a weapon art for the beauty of the movements.

To me it made sense.
:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Rich gave a really good explaination; I'd just like to add to it.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but statistically it was something like 1/3 of all violent crimes involve a weapon. This doesn't seem like a lot until you realize that this includes date rape, domestic abuse, and child abuse, which collectively make up the majority of violent crime. So, if you aren't in a spousal abuse situation, a child abuse situation, and if you aren't in a position to be date raped (or, you are but take all the precautions so this won't happened), then chances are, if you are attacked by someone it will be with a weapon of some sort. And, the bigger and tougher you look, the more you can count on it. Learning a weapon based martial art teaches you how people handle weapons, which is what you are probably most likely to be attacked with.

Not only will you be attacked with a weapon, but all around you there are weapons. My pen, my drinking glass, my belt, by bag, by neck knife (heh), are all weapons. When you learn a martial art that teaches you how fight with a tool in your hand (especially different tools with different sizes and characteristics) then you can translate this knowledge to a self defense situation.

So, because of the fact that most adults, if attacked, will be attacked with a weapon, and because of the fact that improvised weapons are always available, I'd say that it is more then just practical to train with weapons. I'd say it is necissary if you want to know how to defend yourself!

:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Arts that focus soley on blade training do face an impracticality issue; however, club like things constantly surround us every day. You can't get away from the things. So, I contend that stick and club training is not only practical, but is a very pragmatic approach to surviving street encounters.
Sean (www.iemat.com)

 

[Liam_G]

One more thing I'll add. I met a guy at a seminar a while back. He was a well-rounded fighter, training in Judo, BJJ, Doce Pares eskrima, JKD, and boxing. His remark about sticks was this: "You know, after training hard with a stick flying toward my face at 100 mph, if I step in the boxing ring, any punch looks like it's in slow motion ..."

Weapons, of necessity, tend to speed up your perceptions / reactions ... well, either that, or they hit you a lot ... :uhyeah:

Respectfully,
Liam

 

[bart]

Hey There,

This is a report by the DOJ that focuses on crimes with weapons. It's very informative:


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/wuvc01.pdf

This is their main site for crime statistics:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm


The areas on violent, personal, and property crime are very interesting and worth looking at.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Good thread. Here's another way to look at it. When you become familiar with something, you become more cause over it. Computers, for example. My dad won't approach one so he's not anywhere near cause over it. I can do some things with it and my kids...we won't got there. The key point here is the more familiar you are with something, the more cause you are over it.

You train with a baseball bat, you won't be scared of a baseball bat. The same with stick, knife, gun and so forth. You will become familiar with the implement and you won't be in mystery as to its use - both for and against you. The Filipino method of weapons first is quite practical, in my estimation.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Stick Dummy]

I like to think of the FMA/IMA styles as "grad school", especially if you already hold rank in another MA style. They fit my physique and needs like a custom suit.

The ability to see holes (offenses) , cover holes (defenses), and transition a fight range with weapons is absolutely amazing. The evolution to empty hand is simple, and efficient, and becomes second nature quite quickly.

From my profession, the transitions of FMA to ASP batons are pure magic, along with the edged weapon technology. I constantly hear from the 20 + year LEO veterans how they wished they had learned to use their elbows and knees FMA style and saved a lot of busted fingers and hands.

I wish that I had discovered FMA/IMA styles thirty years ago and missed out on the wasted time caused by dogma, and non-reality based techniques.

The synergy with Kenpo is downright magical too :asian:

 

[Mark Lynn]

Good thread

I get asked this question a lot when trying to explain what I teach and how it differs from karate or TKD. And of course the questions get around to the issue of how practical is it to learn how to defend your self with and against sticks and knives.

My standard answer is that impact weapons surround us in our enviroment, we use them at work, play sports with them, have them around our house and in our cars. When learning the concepts behind using weapons then you can see the potential use of everything else.

In my classes I have in the past given students different items to use for some drills (feeding and blocking drills) such as raquet ball raquets, broom, walking staff, cane, magazine, flash lights, etc. etc. to bring this point home.

Same concept with edged weapons, we are surrounded by them (in my line of work as a mechanic all sorts of tools fit in this catagory as well as impact weapons) at home and in work. Again in my classes to help drive this point home I give students various sizes of wooden or metal training blades to practice some drills with. (Generally though we use the rattan sticks)

In regards to empty hand to weapon training I generally start the student off with weapons for a couple of months and then translate the techniques to empty hand. If they can wrap an arm with a two foot long stick in their hand then wrapping the arm with thier empty hand or with a knife is much easier. So in a sense I also use the weapon training for a confidence builder as well. Generally in this area is were I teach the double stick to help train their weak hand and to give the person confindece.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Just as a side note where the weapon techniques translating to empty hand concept really came together for me was in learning Kombatan at some seminars with GM E. Presas.

GM Ernesto had his system (seminar presentation) laid out in such a way that you repeated many of the techniques with double stick, single stick, knife, stick and knife, palm stick, and empty hand. And then at the end of one seminar, GM Ernesto demonstrated this concept of adaptability using the same techniques (principles etc. etc.) with a variety of weapons, staff, sai, nunchaku, tonfa, jo, boken, and even a towel.

I know GM Remy made empty hand to weapon translations of techniques, but for me ( and I speak only of myself) I think GM Ernesto brought it together more and that helped me in time to appreciate Modern Arnis more.

 

[arnisador]

Prof. Presas very much emphasized this "It's all the same" philosophy also. He didn't demonstrate with quite the variety of weapons you list, though he used Datu Jornales' demos as an example of it with many types of weapons.

 

[KyleShort]

"The ability to see holes (offenses) , cover holes (defenses), and transition a fight range with weapons is absolutely amazing. The evolution to empty hand is simple, and efficient, and becomes second nature quite quickly."

That sums up my thoughts...I have been training for a little over 4 months in Doce Pares and I can tell you that I am already a significantly better unarmed fighter.

Sure my technique is still very unrefined and inline with any other begineer, but after having been subjected to hours upon hours of sticks whizzing past my face...whew....

I'll tell you, a fist fight just doesn't seem as frightening anymore =) Most importantly I have learned:

1. To move and read my opponent much faster
2. To put much more focuss on self protection (sticks hurt) including a more realistic respect for what weapons are capable of
3. Increased ability to call upon primal aggression
4. How to stop, jam, off balance and open up my oponent for my assaults
5. How to deal with FEAR (full contact stick training takes a lot of minerals, as a beginner I can tell you that you build up confidence in yourself very fast)

Learning how to A) manipulate your opponent, B) protect yourself and C) attack your opponent's vulnerabilites using proper body mechanics and optimal lines of engagement (read flow) quickly and efficiently is what fighting is all about. The attacking part is basic and easy...when you see a vulnerable spot hit it as hard as you can with something (hammer fist, elbow, knee, stick, beer glass etc.)

Focus on the ABCs above and weapons and unarmed combat blur together as one.

IMO

 

[Brother John]

I can't thank you all enough!
I'm really liking what I read here and appreciate the variety of perspective. My appreciation for the FMA's has grown!
PLEASE: Do continue the discussion!!

Your Brother
John
PS: The latest copy of Black Belt has a decent article (at least 'I' think it's decent) on PMA training strategies. It's written by a Joel Huncar. The "about the author" says that he's "instructor-level rank in Mati Arnis, Balintawak, Cuentada Escrima and Urban Survival Systems."
I don't know what ALL of that means, but maybe you do...

 

[Cthulhu]

Some added points from me. Feel free to ignore

1) Better understanding of range
2) Many systems teach double weapons (2 sticks, stick & knife, etc.), which helps train the 'off' hand as well as help develop some sort of ambidexterity
3) The more you understand how a particular weapon can be employed, the better you can defend yourself against it
4) Better understanding of body mechanics, offensively and defensively.

Cthulhu

 

[Mark Lynn]

Prof. Presas very much emphasized this "It's all the same" philosophy also. He didn't demonstrate with quite the variety of weapons you list, though he used Datu Jornales' demos as an example of it with many types of weapons.

Arnisador

I agree the Professor stressed the "It's all the same" philosophy it's just with the "Professor" I saw more of the connection between techniques, more so than different weapons and different groups of weapons. The first video that I saw of GM Ernesto (great video by the way) was called Mano Mano the Invincible Martial Art. It was filmed around 1990 and in it GM Ernesto demos his system on this very subject using a newspaper, knife, solo and double baston, bolo etc. etc. It really drove the point home and opened my eyes to this concept. This was prior to ever seeing him live, and I had only seen the "Professor" in a couple of 4 hour seminars and one 3 day camp.

Mark

 

[MJS]

Arnisador

I agree the Professor stressed the "It's all the same" philosophy it's just with the "Professor" I saw more of the connection between techniques, more so than different weapons and different groups of weapons. The first video that I saw of GM Ernesto (great video by the way) was called Mano Mano the Invincible Martial Art. It was filmed around 1990 and in it GM Ernesto demos his system on this very subject using a newspaper, knife, solo and double baston, bolo etc. etc. It really drove the point home and opened my eyes to this concept. This was prior to ever seeing him live, and I had only seen the "Professor" in a couple of 4 hour seminars and one 3 day camp.

Mark

Yes, I saw that tape as well. Very interesting. I wouldnt say that it was the best instructional tape I've seen, but if you already have some Modern Arnis background, you shouldnt have too much trouble understanding whats going on.

Mike

 

[Mark Lynn]

Yes, I saw that tape as well. Very interesting. I wouldnt say that it was the best instructional tape I've seen, but if you already have some Modern Arnis background, you shouldnt have too much trouble understanding whats going on.

Mike

Mike

It wasn't really meant to be an instuctional tape per say more of an inroduction or demo tape to generate interest in Kombatan (Mano Mano Arnis at the time). However in regards to explaining about what the FMA can look like and some concepts I thought it was a pretty good tape. In fact I loan it out to people to see what one of the styles of FMA that I teach is, it helps generate interest.

Mark