Outside Dojang Behavior version 2

[bluewaveschool]

I didn't want to hijack the other thread, so I'll put my situation here.


I'm face currently with a mild version of this situation. I have an instructor that is dating my younger sister. He was 17, now 18, she'll be 16 in a month. To quote the movie Wedding Crashers 'she's a stage 5 clinger'. Right after he broke up with his gf to date my sister, his ex joined the class. I said 'Dating isn't my place to get involved, but once it affects this school it will be my place'. Everything has been very smooth... but my sister is starting to drive him to the point his pushing her away, and he decided to buy his ex her uniform, and works with his ex almost as much as my sister. I've seen for a few weeks this all coming to a blow up, wondering if it will be in class or not. My sister is only a yellow belt, his ex is a white belt. His judgement calls in this, and the way he has presented some things he wants to do and his feelings on safety equipment, have kept me from adding him to the official instructor roll, those who can teach the class without me being there. To make things more complicated, one of the other instructors asked me, in front of him, why I hadn't added him to the list yet. I talked to my instructors on the list after class about my thoughts and feelings on not adding him yet, they understood to a point but felt it wasn't fair to him. I think that I'm going to lose at best 1 student, most likely though an instructor when it's all done.

How much leeway would you give the instructor in question in this situation? Would you wait til it blows up? Would you ask him to leave the school if it does? Would it depend on it happening at the dojang or not?

 

[Steve]

Well, I guess first I'll say that in the other thread, we were talking about adult behavior. These people are basically kids.

Is the guy abusing your sister in any way? If not, it sounds like she's in the middle of a first class mess, and I'd let her dive right in. It'll end badly. It will likely be painful for her. But hopefully she'll learn something from it.

In other words, this isn't about actual relationships. This is about these three young men and women trying on a love triangle for size to see how it fits, and experimenting with soap opera. It's drama I wouldn't voluntarily have any part of, and my advice to you is for you to let your sister slog through it on her own. I'd try to keep her from damaging her reputation too terribly much, but ultimately, she's got to sleep in the bed she makes (figuratively speaking, only).

Edit: I just want to add that this sort of thing is unprofessional, and if it gets too overt, this young man will probably damage the reputation of the school at least to a degree. If I saw that drama, I'd certainly abandon ship. I don't want to be a part of any school that has more to do with an after school special than a martial arts school.

 

[Tez3]

Poor young man! Like the menage a trois thing having two girls fighting over you is much better in fantasy than in real life!
Personally what I'd do is clear the dojo, the young man and yourself included but put another instructor in plus the two girls padded up and tell them to fight it out. Gum shields in, no talking. Don't imagine that girls don't fight among themselves, it's very nasty, this way is better. They fight until they can't go on, the understanding is that after this everything is left outside the dojo, they shake hands and they behave properly while training. You could end up with two very good fighters, the very worse that could happen is that they become good friends, trust me, that bodes badly for the boyfriend.

Yes, it's what I'd do and it will clear the air one way or another, much better than an atmosphere making everyone miserable. Dithering around does nothing,.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Fighting it out is just unfair to the ex. Dad has taught her far too many mean tactics for it to be remotely fair. I think tomorrow night might be a breaking point, we'll see what happens.

 

[Tez3]

Fighting it out is just unfair to the ex. Dad has taught her far too many mean tactics for it to be remotely fair. I think tomorrow night might be a breaking point, we'll see what happens.

Fair doesn't matter, face them off, your sister would win and the other girl would leave, sorted. The other girl could surprise you though, you have no idea what girls are like when there's no males around.

 

[StudentCarl]

If the lad has potential as an instructor, you should pull him aside and educate him too, about how it is important to protect your station as a leader by not getting drawn into drama with students. He can learn from this unless he's all ego, in which case you may be better without him.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

We've had problems with teens dating students, and problems with students bringing in their boyfriend/girlfriend to start class. All situations have been great, until they break up or are headed towards that point of the relationship. We do not talk during class, and as instructors, we do our best to keep them separated during class within reason (i.e. never have them spar or do self defense with one another).

Your situation is different, as it involves the b.f., a current g.f. and an ex, not to mention the g.f. is your sister. I don't think that this would reflect poorly on your school, no matter the turn out. I say that because they are kids, and kids learn by making mistakes. Hell, we all learn that way, but as adults we should've already learned those life lessons.

As long as the drama doesn't come out IN CLASS, I would just let it sort itself out. Just my 0.02.. .

 

[Nomad]

Fighting it out is just unfair to the ex. Dad has taught her far too many mean tactics for it to be remotely fair.

If this is the case, then far better for it to happen under somewhat controlled circumstances than anywhere else. Certainly could be an eye opener for one or both of the girls involved...

 

[jthomas1600]

I don't really see a moral issue here. But teaching your ex could be problematic and full of potential issues. Teaching your girlfriend could be the same. Teaching them both in the same school? When all parties are teenagers? I have a hard time seeing this end any way but bad. I don't know if there's much you can do except if/when it blows up ask this young man to take a short break from instructing if need be to minimize the drama and disruption to your school. Good luck.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I'm on the fence about his potential. Being around the other instructors is a good influence on him for the most part. But at the same time, his temper is always just below the surface, he can have a very dark outlook on things. We were discussing bullies at the end of class one night and how we would expect the kids to react in school. He was being a bit extreme, and I was trying to reel him in, but 2 parents that were in the room have never brought their kids back. Kids that were pretty close to testing for yellow and liked the class.

 

[jthomas1600]

I'm on the fence about his potential. Being around the other instructors is a good influence on him for the most part. But at the same time, his temper is always just below the surface, he can have a very dark outlook on things. We were discussing bullies at the end of class one night and how we would expect the kids to react in school. He was being a bit extreme, and I was trying to reel him in, but 2 parents that were in the room have never brought their kids back. Kids that were pretty close to testing for yellow and liked the class.

That puts things in a little different light in my opinion. I might be a little more preemptive in asking him to take a break from his role as instructor. Tell him I foresee drama and disruption coming and don't want it to involve an acting instructor. He may loose his cool over that. It may reveal more of his character to you.

 

[granfire]

I'm on the fence about his potential. Being around the other instructors is a good influence on him for the most part. But at the same time, his temper is always just below the surface, he can have a very dark outlook on things. We were discussing bullies at the end of class one night and how we would expect the kids to react in school. He was being a bit extreme, and I was trying to reel him in, but 2 parents that were in the room have never brought their kids back. Kids that were pretty close to testing for yellow and liked the class.

whoa...I think the temper issue is a bit more of a problem then the 2 girls.

Self Discipline is on of the major principles of Martial Arts...and even though the parents don't pay (or pay much) he is representing you and your school (so by extention the Y as well) So maybe he needs a little bit of a breather, instructor is not an easy task.

As to the 'love triangle' maybe you need to bring the 3 love birds into the office and make it clear any drama in the school brings out the Hulk in you?

I really have no experience with those things, I avoid drama...
When one of our junior instructors dated and his girlfriend took class as well he let the school owner know. rather professional kid and surprisingly the girl kept coming even after the break up.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'm on the fence about his potential. Being around the other instructors is a good influence on him for the most part. But at the same time, his temper is always just below the surface, he can have a very dark outlook on things. We were discussing bullies at the end of class one night and how we would expect the kids to react in school. He was being a bit extreme, and I was trying to reel him in, but 2 parents that were in the room have never brought their kids back. Kids that were pretty close to testing for yellow and liked the class.

This is just one problem with having children teach. Eighteen year olds rarely teach well or have enough experience to act professionally.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I didn't want to hijack the other thread, so I'll put my situation here.


I'm face currently with a mild version of this situation. I have an instructor that is dating my younger sister. He was 17, now 18, she'll be 16 in a month. To quote the movie Wedding Crashers 'she's a stage 5 clinger'. Right after he broke up with his gf to date my sister, his ex joined the class. I said 'Dating isn't my place to get involved, but once it affects this school it will be my place'. Everything has been very smooth... but my sister is starting to drive him to the point his pushing her away, and he decided to buy his ex her uniform, and works with his ex almost as much as my sister. I've seen for a few weeks this all coming to a blow up, wondering if it will be in class or not. My sister is only a yellow belt, his ex is a white belt. His judgement calls in this, and the way he has presented some things he wants to do and his feelings on safety equipment, have kept me from adding him to the official instructor roll, those who can teach the class without me being there. To make things more complicated, one of the other instructors asked me, in front of him, why I hadn't added him to the list yet. I talked to my instructors on the list after class about my thoughts and feelings on not adding him yet, they understood to a point but felt it wasn't fair to him. I think that I'm going to lose at best 1 student, most likely though an instructor when it's all done.

How much leeway would you give the instructor in question in this situation? Would you wait til it blows up? Would you ask him to leave the school if it does? Would it depend on it happening at the dojang or not?

You have three things to address here. Your sister's behavior, the instructor's behavior, and the ex's behavior.

She's your sister, and you are an instructor. If she is behaving in a way that is pushing him away, you should tell her.

This assistant instructor is dating your sister but buying stuff for the ex. You need to sit him down and ask him what's what with whom. And he needs to spit it out or go away. He broke up with his g/f to date the head instructor's sis, so he cannot say that its none of your business. Tell him to quit teaching the ex and tell him to settle his affairs (literally) with your sister. If they are going to continue to date, he needs to spell out what it is that is bothering him in her behavior. And he probably shouldn't be teaching her either.

The ex decided to suddenly join the school. Sounds fishy to me. Chances are she knows who he's dating and joined to compete with her. Tell her that she cannot attend classes that he teaches. Regardless of whether or not they're dating again, the two need to be separated.

Finally, it is unclear to me from many of your posts in various thread who actually runs the school. The impression that I get is that you do, but not entirely. Honestly, there needs to be a person at the top who has the final word. You have posted quite a few questions about organizational affiliation, with the ultimate issue being that the others 'won't go for it.' The students shouldn't have an option on those things; if they don't trust you to make the right choices on this then they should go elsewhere. As for other instructors, are you the first among equals or do you run the school? If you run the school then make the call on this issue of the love triangle before it explodes and be done with it.

A dojang is not a democracy. You need defined policy on things such as safety equipment and its use. You also need defined policy regarding dating of students, particularly minors (your sister is a minor and I'd bet the ex is too). Frankly, this guy doesn't sound like good instructor material at this point in time. The fact that the other instuctors are pushing to move him to teaching classes without supervision tells me that they probably are not either.

Make the call on what is best for the school if you are the one in charge. If the school will benefit from organizational affiliation, then make the call and adopt the forms you need. If the school will be hurt by this teen instructing class, make the call and keep him off the instructor roster. If this stupid dating situation is going to affect the class, then make the call and separate the ex and this teen assistant instructor. Or send her packing. Sounds like she's only there to separate him from your sister. And that isn't a good reason for her to be there.

Frankly, you could probably stand to lose them both. He's already cost you two students because of his mouth. Don't let him cost you more because of his dating habits.

Daniel

 

[granfire]

On second thoughts, make it an executive decision that the young man is not to instruct either of the girls.
That means they have to make due with one of the other trainers. Might safe you some head ache down the road.
My instructor always pulled me away from my kid, even when we had tings going well.

 

[jks9199]

Seems simple to me. You've got concerns about his maturity on more than one front. He doesn't teach without supervision. As he matures -- you can revise that policy.

And he definitely doesn't work with either of the young ladies in class without close supervision. Ideally -- someone else works with them always.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Before the last head instructor passed away and the class fell to me, there was an agreement that issues would be discussed among all the instructors and a vote would be taken. Head instructor had the tie breaker When he passed away in July, class falls to me as the highest rank. Now, while I outrank the other 4, three of them have been stuck at 1st degree recommended for SEVERAL years. It's not like they are new to things. One has been stuck for a decade, literally. Last head was never around to test. Two are sharpening up their forms so I can test them in a few months. Of course, they, like me took a break, because of real life happening, but they deserve better than the rank they are. That's why I give them say in matters. The 18 was out for a long time, he wasn't around for the death, transfer, all that. Apparently getting run over by a car does that. He was 17 when he started dating my sister.

The temper, he's been better about it. He learned about losing your cool sparring when one of my other instructors flung him to the floor, jumped on him and held his fist to his face. I have to be more diplomatic about it, because I'm not a fighter by nature, I don't have that killer edge/mean streak to flat out hurt people. I also found out yesterday that he ordered it for her, but she did give him money for it. Him handing it to her in front of people (before I got there) gave the wrong impression.

I plan on speaking with him tonight after class. I am getting there very early to observe interactions before class, I've been running in about 5 minutes til the last few classes due to work.

 

[Carol]

I believe that all instructors should be absolutely committed to giving their students a great class. If they cannot handle that responsibility, then they should not be teaching.

As a corollary, if they cannot handle that responsibility, then I have no interest in being their student. This is why I do not sign contracts. All I ask of them is an hour out of the day. If they cannot keep class together for that long then I have no interest in giving them my money, time, and energy.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Seems simple to me. You've got concerns about his maturity on more than one front. He doesn't teach without supervision. As he matures -- you can revise that policy.

And he definitely doesn't work with either of the young ladies in class without close supervision. Ideally -- someone else works with them always.

I was asked at the beginning of last class by one of the other instructors, in front of him, why I had not added him to the official instructor list. I truthfully hadn't thought about it in about a month, but after class I shared my concerns with them.

The other reason I'm not in total control of the direction of the class is that I have to tiptoe around the Y. We've always been kind of distance, never fully embraced. But they do foot the bill for insurance, and they did just drop about $700 on equipment I asked for. The Y director is... sneaky. He doesn't tell you anything but nice things to your face. But I hear things through other people, and just learned that not only does the Y have cameras everywhere, but they have audio on them AND he has it set up that he can view them all from his laptop at home. Now, I've done nothing wrong and am not really worried about it much, but I do have to keep on his good side to keep the class going. Even pooling our money, the instructors as a group couldn't afford to open up a dojang. All the equipment belongs to the Y, and we're all poor.

 

[jks9199]

I was asked at the beginning of last class by one of the other instructors, in front of him, why I had not added him to the official instructor list. I truthfully hadn't thought about it in about a month, but after class I shared my concerns with them.

The other reason I'm not in total control of the direction of the class is that I have to tiptoe around the Y. We've always been kind of distance, never fully embraced. But they do foot the bill for insurance, and they did just drop about $700 on equipment I asked for. The Y director is... sneaky. He doesn't tell you anything but nice things to your face. But I hear things through other people, and just learned that not only does the Y have cameras everywhere, but they have audio on them AND he has it set up that he can view them all from his laptop at home. Now, I've done nothing wrong and am not really worried about it much, but I do have to keep on his good side to keep the class going. Even pooling our money, the instructors as a group couldn't afford to open up a dojang. All the equipment belongs to the Y, and we're all poor.

You're mixing two separate issues.

The student instructor you're concerned with is one situation. His is a simple issue of maturity; the maturity to control his temper, and to handle romantic relationships. He may be very skilled; I don't know. He's immature, based on your own descriptions. That's a situation you can define and explain to him. Giving him a title like "student instructor" or "instructor in training" might salve his ego a bit; it shows that you're open to advancing his status down the road.

The Y manager is a different problem. You need to work with him. Video alone is probably legal. You know how he works... don't be suckered. And don't let an immature student instructor jeopardize your club with his personal relationships. (So there is some overlap.)

One other thing... Just because someone is a black belt, they aren't necessarily an instructor. At one point, the class I trained in had 7 black belts. None of were THE teacher... In time, I and my training partner have inherited the class.