Our style in Korean or English?

[MBuzzy]

I realize that we've had discussions along these lines before (here and here). I'd like to expand on that a bit.

UpNorthKyosa mentioned in another post:

I throw my hands up in the air when it comes to cross organization terminology. Everyone had their Korean so screwed up that I wish that people would just stop pretending and speak english. It would be a lot more honest.

I think this is an excellent point. We use the Korean names for most things in an attempt to "maintain the culture" and stay true to the Korean roots. Also, it gives us a common terminology all over the World. Tang Soo Do, as so many other styles (Tae Kwon Do included of course) is practiced all over the world and everyone speaking Korean gives us common footing.

But it is true, everyone's pronunciation is completely different. Depending mainly on who your instructor was and how they had heard their instructor speaking. Eventually it can be traced back to Koreans, but how far down the line does this telephone game go? Depending on where your instructor was from in Korea, their pronunciation and dialect will be very different, just as in the US. A Korean from the South and a Korean from the North will be able to understand eachother, but it is like a southerner talking to someone from Boston, the accents can get a little hairy. Now translate that into English and add ANOTHER layer of accents - Northeastern, Southern, etc....

My pronunciation is nowhere near perfect, but after spending a year in Korea, I know some of the basics. Most importantly, I know what sounds exist in Korean and which do not. I have had a very hard time trying to understand what many Americans are saying when they are speaking Korean and some think that my pronunciation is laughable. So is it best to carry on in this way? With everyone pronouncing things differently? Are we doingourselves a disservice by speaking in Korea and not in English? Afterall, people probably have different English names for some moves as well. And if we are to carry on in this way, how do we address the problem? Standardizing pronunciation is almost impossible.....especially when some can't even make the proper sounds or can't hear the differences. I'm curious what everyone else's feelings on the matter are....for the most part, mine if frustration.

 

[Makalakumu]

Personally, I'm ready to drop the Korean. I've met enough Koreans to get embarassed when I ask simple questions, so I know just how "off" my pronunciation is. One thing that I think would help is that if people decide to keep using Korean, it may really be beneficial to take some classes in Korean. Make sure you can read hangul. Know what sounds exist and which ones don't. If you aren't doing that and you are still trying to speak, you don't really know what you are trying to say, so it becomes a giant game of pretend...IMHO.

 

[MBuzzy]

I'm really an advocate of requiring basic Korean language and writing as part of higher rank tests. How many people can't even write the name of their style in its native language....and yet continue to put it on shirts and logos. It is on certificates and on the walls of Dojangs, but seldom can a single student identify what is written. Basically, it is just there to make the place look more "asian."

Hangul is very possibly the easiest written language to learn. Learning the speak Korean takes YEARS and a lot of effort, but learning the basic sounds only takes a few hours.

Perfect example, within the federation, it is taught that Annyeong Hashimnika is how you say hello basically. Although it is used on many contexts where it doesn't fit. And on top of that, the specific phrase is reserved only for the highest positions. For example, you would say Annyeong Hashimnika to the President or the founder of your style, to another student, you would probably only say Annyeong Hasseyo. You MAY say something like Annyeong Hashyipshyeo to your instructor....but if you go around saying annyeong hashimnika to everyone in korea, you will probably be laughed at.

With that said....why we do it is perfectly understandable. You teach to the worst possible condition. If a student were to meet the Kwan Jang Nim and say Annyeong Hasseyo, it would be very insulting to him, as he is deserving of more respect than that - and this is only based on my EXTREMELY limited understanding of honorifics in Korean

 

[terryl965]

I am with you Mbuzzy, I wish we could all just get along. :rofl:

 

[MBuzzy]

hehe, good point, Terry!

So how much Korean do you use in your school? Do most TKD schools stay or Korean or English? The TKD classes in my Haidong Gumdo Dojang speak mostly English for movements.

 

[terryl965]

hehe, good point, Terry!

So how much Korean do you use in your school? Do most TKD schools stay or Korean or English? The TKD classes in my Haidong Gumdo Dojang speak mostly English for movements.

We try and use all the basic terms this way they know what to expect at tournaments that we do since they always call everything in Korean.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

We're required to know a lot of Korean terminology (spoken by us and to us) as part of pre-tests, dan tests, and dan recertifications in the ITF. Personally, I just take my cue from how Master Kim pronounces it -- he is from Korea, after all. I'm not going to say my pronunciation is perfect, but at least I have a good reference point close to home.

Tang Soo!

 

[MBuzzy]

We're required to know a lot of Korean terminology (spoken by us and to us) as part of pre-tests, dan tests, and dan recertifications in the ITF. Personally, I just take my cue from how Master Kim pronounces it -- he is from Korea, after all. I'm not going to say my pronunciation is perfect, but at least I have a good reference point close to home.

Tang Soo!

That's a good point - if you have a reference like that as close as you do, it is a great way to go. I've learned to be a bit careful of that though, I run into a lot of people who say "Well that's how Master Kim says it" or "That's how [insert Korean here] says it." And while I'm sure that the person HEARD it that way, I can guarantee that it was not actually SAID that way. Things can be lost in translation. When I was learning to speak it there, people who tell me a word and I would repeat it EXACTLY as I heard it and they'd say "nope." Even after trying many times, I couldn't get certain words right, even though it sounded to me like I was dead on. We just can't hear a lot of the subtle differences between vowels in their language.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

That's a good point - if you have a reference like that as close as you do, it is a great way to go. I've learned to be a bit careful of that though, I run into a lot of people who say "Well that's how Master Kim says it" or "That's how [insert Korean here] says it." And while I'm sure that the person HEARD it that way, I can guarantee that it was not actually SAID that way. Things can be lost in translation. When I was learning to speak it there, people who tell me a word and I would repeat it EXACTLY as I heard it and they'd say "nope." Even after trying many times, I couldn't get certain words right, even though it sounded to me like I was dead on. We just can't hear a lot of the subtle differences between vowels in their language.

Always true, which is why I'm glad I'm a linguist

I still can't say I'm in favor of abandoning Korean terminology; maybe just a greater focus on correct pronunciation. That's part of the aim of the ITF, keeping things traditional and striving for uniform standards.

 

[MBuzzy]

Agreed - personal opinion is that we SHOULD be speaking Korean primarily. But we should be speaking it correctly. I just htink that it is either one or the other, not some english and some bad korean and mixing up the technique names.

 

[Lynne]

Add to the commands being in Korean that most of the time classes are very loud. I swear that I cannot distinguish yup chagi from ahp chagi. Or the instructor might say rear leg tolio chagi and all I hear is something chagi. But English would present the same problem in a loud environment I suppose. Still, different instructors pronounce their Korean differently and that can be very confusing, especially for new students.

We do have one instructor taking Korean. I remember when he said Keemah Jaseh (horse stance) very fast. It was unlike anything I'd heard before. I only knew he'd said Keemah Jaseh when he went into the horse stance.

 

[MBuzzy]

Alot of that has to do with accent or lack thereof - a lot of the things that I say in what I know to be correct Korean pronunciation are unrecognizable to other students...

 

[JoelD]

All I know is that I have no idea what Sa Bom Nim Hanke said when he first came into the tournament hall on the day of Gup competition a couple weeks ago, Craig. Almost everyone responded and i was like, "huh?".

I'm with JT on this one though, i think that the language is an important part of the history of the art and should never be dropped. 5 Moo Do Values and all... History, its the first one. Anyways, Proper pronunciation is important for sure but the problem remains, not everyone has a good point of reference to go from i.e. Craig's time in Korea, JT hearing Grandmaster Kim speak his native tongue, etc. Now, my Sa Bom has known Kwang Jang Nim HC Hwang for a good many years so perhaps some of her pronunciation comes from what she hears him say. She also spent a bit of time in Korea as well. Again, as Craig pointed out before, even though she may repeat exactly what she hears there could be certain nuances of the language that are missing. For us in the Moo Duk Kwan there has been alot of stress lately on the 5 Moo Do Values and as i mentioned above, History is the first, and perhaps the most important. So to that end i dont think it would be right to get rid of the use of the Korean language, particularily from the perspective of a SBD practitioner.

 

[MBuzzy]

All I know is that I have no idea what Sa Bom Nim Hanke said when he first came into the tournament hall on the day of Gup competition a couple weeks ago, Craig. Almost everyone responded and i was like, "huh?".

I'm with JT on this one though, i think that the language is an important part of the history of the art and should never be dropped. 5 Moo Do Values and all... History, its the first one. Anyways, Proper pronunciation is important for sure but the problem remains, not everyone has a good point of reference to go from i.e. Craig's time in Korea, JT hearing Grandmaster Kim speak his native tongue, etc. Now, my Sa Bom has known Kwang Jang Nim HC Hwang for a good many years so perhaps some of her pronunciation comes from what she hears him say. She also spent a bit of time in Korea as well. Again, as Craig pointed out before, even though she may repeat exactly what she hears there could be certain nuances of the language that are missing. For us in the Moo Duk Kwan there has been alot of stress lately on the 5 Moo Do Values and as i mentioned above, History is the first, and perhaps the most important. So to that end i dont think it would be right to get rid of the use of the Korean language, particularily from the perspective of a SBD practitioner.

I remember having a hard time understanding some of what he said, but getting it. So there's a perfect example....Master Hanke was the 10th Dan in the US and has spent a lot of his career around BOTH Kwan Jang Nims. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't speak Korean - and yet most of the room has a hard time understanding him.

I couldn't have said the rest better.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I remember having a hard time understanding some of what he said, but getting it. So there's a perfect example....Master Hanke was the 10th Dan in the US and has spent a lot of his career around BOTH Kwan Jang Nims. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't speak Korean - and yet most of the room has a hard time understanding him.

I couldn't have said the rest better.

10th dan? When did he die?

 

[MBuzzy]

Oops!! didn't come off correctly. His rank is not 10th Dan. He was the 10th American to receive Dan ranking in the US. He's a Pal Dan.

 

[e ship yuk]

10th dan? When did he die?

I think he meant "10th person in the U.S. to receive dan."

I'm a proponent of teaching in the language of your students. The Okinawans taught in Okinawan, not Chinese. Funakoshi taught in Japanese, not Okinawan (mostly a dialectical difference, but they can be very different from each other). The kwan founders taught in Korean, not Japanese. Why don't we teach in English?

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Oops!! didn't come off correctly. His rank is not 10th Dan. He was the 10th American to receive Dan ranking in the US. He's a Pal Dan.

Okay, that's a bit clearer. So 8th dan, but the 10th to be awarded dan level in the US. Cool.

 

[TallAdam85]

Coming up in the Ranks I had to learn Basic Words, Strikes in Korean as well blocks and kicks. 3 Years ago I joined the fed I am with now and we all have the same feeling on teaching korean words to people if they want to learn them well teach them words like Chow down mak Key (spelt something like that) but we feel it is more important for someone to know how to defend them self then learn korean. I use all English words and it makes it easier for the kid who is 6 with add to follow along in class.

just my 2 cents with alot of spelling errors.

 

[Errant108]

The Okinawans took Chinese terms and pronounced them in their own language.

The Japanese took Okinawan terms and pronounced them in their own language.

The Koreans took Japanese terms and pronounced them in their own language.

Where are you from?