Other Martial Art Teaching Taekwondo

[dvcochran]

I don't know how it works in kkw schools tbh.

Within 'our' ITF group, it should be possible to move between individual schools and have the same requirements and structure - essentially the same sort of classes and teaching, more or less.

One of the students recently went on holiday to literally the other side of the world - he found an ITF school and attended a few times and he said he slotted right in, there were very few differences and nothing significant at all.

Conversely, he has also attended a kkw school in the past and it was the similarities that were few and insignificant.


I'd like sometime to put this in a personal perspective - there's a kkw school not all that far from me. Possibly some time next year I'm considering arranging a visit.

I highly recommend it. And any other school in your reasonable circle. It will be some of the best learning/training you will ever get.
It isn’t really about the similarities or differences but what you learn From them.

 

[pdg]

I highly recommend it. And any other school in your reasonable circle. It will be some of the best learning/training you will ever get.
It isn’t really about the similarities or differences but what you learn From them.

Yeah, it's definitely not from a challenge perspective either.

There's also an aikido place that might be interesting.

Thing is, there's so many moves and techniques that can be used in a multitude of ways that I don't get the opportunity to test differently - there's a few people I can occasionally step way outside the boundaries with, but they're not always around and there's not always time.

First thing to do would be dig out that white belt...

 

[skribs]

I don't know how it works in kkw schools tbh.

Within 'our' ITF group, it should be possible to move between individual schools and have the same requirements and structure - essentially the same sort of classes and teaching, more or less.

One of the students recently went on holiday to literally the other side of the world - he found an ITF school and attended a few times and he said he slotted right in, there were very few differences and nothing significant at all.

Conversely, he has also attended a kkw school in the past and it was the similarities that were few and insignificant.


I'd like sometime to put this in a personal perspective - there's a kkw school not all that far from me. Possibly some time next year I'm considering arranging a visit.

I'm guessing there will be a bigger difference between KKW and ITF, than within KKW. Kind of like Spanish and Portuguese, instead of Spain Spanish and Mexican Spanish.

Anyone doing the Taegeuks and Yudanja should do them the exact same. Other than that, there is no standardized curriculum. The local master is free to build the curriculum any way they see fit.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Is it a big deal if another martial artist (karate, tangsoodo, etc) starts teaching at a taekwondo school? Is there a grace period in order for them to learn new forms, holding pads, etc?

As a student I would enjoy the different perspective, but I would think the person would want to be explaining, "in..(other art)...we do it this way because.(e.g., punches to the head are allowed in competition)..."

 

[dvcochran]

I'm guessing there will be a bigger difference between KKW and ITF, than within KKW. Kind of like Spanish and Portuguese, instead of Spain Spanish and Mexican Spanish.

Anyone doing the Taegeuks and Yudanja should do them the exact same. Other than that, there is no standardized curriculum. The local master is free to build the curriculum any way they see fit.

You keep saying this when the fact is it is impossible for several reasons. People and their anatomy is a big one. Plus you will Never see people competing at a tournament do them the exact same. How else could they give awards for different performances. I know you see this from the other side of the spectrum and that you do not get the statement. That is ok, just roll with it.
It is incorrect and confusing to say this. It makes you come off as an uninformed person, which I do not believe you are. New folks especially have zero clue what you are talking about when you say this.
I can hear the old quote of "saying something for the sake of having anything to say" going on here.
No, I am not bashing; instead trying to help you 'hear' how others hear your words sometimes. Neither is it an exercise in reciprocation. There is no need or purpose to pointing out where others have done something similar as that derails the whole point of the exercise.

 

[skribs]

You keep saying this when the fact is it is impossible for several reasons. People and their anatomy is a big one.

The strife is accuracy of the form. To properly follow all of the details of the form. Proper stance, including the distance of your feet, balance of your weight, depth of the stance, orientation of your feet, hips, and shoulders. Proper technique, including chamber and execution. Proper power and timing. Someone taller will have a longer and wider stance, yes. But the goal is to copy the technique so it can look the exact same. So when I perform the form, or my Master performs the form, or any other black belt performs the form for students to follow, the students can watch us and get the same form and the same technique. So that in 50 years when my student's student's student is teaching the form, they're learning the same form that I was taught by my Master.

And it's easily possible. In my demonstration team, we do this. We time the forms to be done at the same time, in the same way by everyone. The details of the form are copied by everyone so it doesn't look like 15 random people performing similar movements. This is how coordinated dance groups build dance routines. I've seen dance groups with scores of people in perfect synchronicity. This is expected of forms demonstration teams, dance groups, cheerleaders, any performance profession where you're performing as a group. That's how other sports like gymnastics and diving work - the more correct you do techniques, the better your score. There are specific details the judges look at when you do a dive, specific requirements for every technique you do in gymnastics. Those must be met in order for the best score.

That you think is impossible is simultaneously ludicrous and telling.

Plus you will Never see people competing at a tournament do them the exact same. How else could they give awards for different performances.

The person who is more correct gets a higher score. This is a simple concept. That's like saying "if two people take the same test that has the same questions, how can one person get a C while the other gets a B+?" Because one person got more questions correct.

[/quote]It is incorrect and confusing to say this. It makes you come off as an uninformed person, which I do not believe you are. New folks especially have zero clue what you are talking about when you say this.

I can hear the old quote of "saying something for the sake of having anything to say" going on here.[/quote]

No, I am not bashing; instead trying to help you 'hear' how others hear your words sometimes. Neither is it an exercise in reciprocation. There is no need or purpose to pointing out where others have done something similar as that derails the whole point of the exercise.[/QUOTE]

What I quoted here is what I thought of your post. You're incorrect. What you say makes you come across as uninformed.

You're saying things are impossible, but that's how they're done. It's like on Kitchen Nightmares whenever a chef comes up with excuses to Gordon Ramsay and says "you can't cook fresh food every night."

Now, if you want to say that's not how your school or your style learns forms, I could totally agree with you. We can discuss the differences in our styles. But you're trying to tell me I'm wrong, but what you're telling me is wrong. What you're saying is wrong I know 100% for a fact to be true. Based on how simple some of the concepts are that we're talking about, I have to wonder if you're just trolling at this point.

 

[skribs]

@dvcochran let me explain what I mean by doing it the same way. Because maybe you're getting hung up on something other than what I mean.

Let's say I'm doing Taegeuk Sam Jang (#3). Let's just look at the first two steps:

1. Down block in walking stance
2. Front kick, land in forward stance and double punch

Within these 2 steps, are so many details that are expected during the performance. The higher your rank, the more precise you are supposed to be with the form. For example:

• In the walking stance, the exact width and length of the stance and the direction your toes, hips, and shoulders point
• When chambering for your left-hand down block, the location and orientation of your right hand (under your arm, palm down)
• The timing of when you chamber, look, step, turn, and execute the block
• When you perform the block, the location of your hand relative to your knee
• The position in which your right hand ends (chambered just above your belt)
• For the kick, the timing of chamber, extend, re-chamber, and step down
• The height of the kick
• Clearly show the ball of your feet when you kick
• The placement of your hands during the kick (low hinge position on your right side for a right leg kick)
• For the front stance punches, your feet should be shoulder width apart, double that long, with the rear leg straight and the front knee moderately bent, both feet, hips, and shoulders facing forward
• Your left hand should chamber simultaneously as the right hand punches, and vice versa on the next punch
• Your breathing as you execute the techniques

There are more details (I didn't include them all), but this shows how exact the form is supposed to be performed. If you chamber your down block with a single hand instead of the proper 2-hand chamber, it's not correct. If you chamber with your palm pointing at your armpit instead of the floor, it's not correct. If you kick waist height or use your instep, it's not correct. If your back leg points to the side instead of forward on the front stance, it's not correct. If you down block with your hand an inch past your knee instead of directly over your knee, it's not correct. If you turn and then step, your timing is incorrect.

Now, there are three reasons why someone might not be able to meet the requirements of the form. First off, I don't expect someone at green or blue belt to have worked on all of the details to the level that a black belt has. So I judge colored belts with a grain of salt. Second, some people are not physically capable of meeting the standards of the form, especially regarding high kicks for our middle-aged and older students. If they are to teach the form, however, they should know what those expectations are so they can instruct students properly, even if they are no longer capable of that expectation. The third reason is simply that you don't know what you should know.

How has this worked for me? Well, here are some issues I've had lately that I've been working on:

1. My front kicks in the Taegeuks were about neck high. I drilled those portions of the Taegeuk until I could get it correct.
2. Right now I'm working on the double-side-kick from Koryo Hyung. I'm not rotating my body enough, so I've been drilling just the first couple steps of the form the last couple of weeks.
3. (Keep in mind we just started doing the Taegeuks) quite often I won't end on the same spot as I started. There are a couple of forms, #s 4-7 to be specific, where I had inconsistent stances and ended up either forward or backward of my starting spot. So I practiced over and over to figure out where my problem stances were, in order to fix my problem and do the form correctly.
4. One of our local forms has a 360 hook kick with the right leg. My 360 hook kick is amazing...with my left leg. I look like a baby giraffe when I do the kick with my right leg. So I've drilled the kick to be properly done.
5. The latest local form I'm working on, I wasn't sure on one of the steps which stances I'm supposed to be in. So I asked my Master. Turns out I was wrong. I was using a longer stance than I should have been. So I adjusted and now I'm trying to build my habit with the correct stance.

I'm not perfect. But the goal is to push towards doing the forms more and more correct, which is to be a more and more exact copy of what I am being taught. If I were to go to another school and practice the Taegeuk forms, I would expect the other school to have the same exact details and rules as what I learned. If they do the form differently than my school did, it means one of the schools was doing it wrong. The forms are standardized.

 

[dvcochran]

@dvcochran let me explain what I mean by doing it the same way. Because maybe you're getting hung up on something other than what I mean.

Let's say I'm doing Taegeuk Sam Jang (#3). Let's just look at the first two steps:

1. Down block in walking stance
2. Front kick, land in forward stance and double punch

Within these 2 steps, are so many details that are expected during the performance. The higher your rank, the more precise you are supposed to be with the form. For example:

• In the walking stance, the exact width and length of the stance and the direction your toes, hips, and shoulders point
• When chambering for your left-hand down block, the location and orientation of your right hand (under your arm, palm down)
• The timing of when you chamber, look, step, turn, and execute the block
• When you perform the block, the location of your hand relative to your knee
• The position in which your right hand ends (chambered just above your belt)
• For the kick, the timing of chamber, extend, re-chamber, and step down
• The height of the kick
• Clearly show the ball of your feet when you kick
• The placement of your hands during the kick (low hinge position on your right side for a right leg kick)
• For the front stance punches, your feet should be shoulder width apart, double that long, with the rear leg straight and the front knee moderately bent, both feet, hips, and shoulders facing forward
• Your left hand should chamber simultaneously as the right hand punches, and vice versa on the next punch
• Your breathing as you execute the techniques

There are more details (I didn't include them all), but this shows how exact the form is supposed to be performed. If you chamber your down block with a single hand instead of the proper 2-hand chamber, it's not correct. If you chamber with your palm pointing at your armpit instead of the floor, it's not correct. If you kick waist height or use your instep, it's not correct. If your back leg points to the side instead of forward on the front stance, it's not correct. If you down block with your hand an inch past your knee instead of directly over your knee, it's not correct. If you turn and then step, your timing is incorrect.

Now, there are three reasons why someone might not be able to meet the requirements of the form. First off, I don't expect someone at green or blue belt to have worked on all of the details to the level that a black belt has. So I judge colored belts with a grain of salt. Second, some people are not physically capable of meeting the standards of the form, especially regarding high kicks for our middle-aged and older students. If they are to teach the form, however, they should know what those expectations are so they can instruct students properly, even if they are no longer capable of that expectation. The third reason is simply that you don't know what you should know.

How has this worked for me? Well, here are some issues I've had lately that I've been working on:

1. My front kicks in the Taegeuks were about neck high. I drilled those portions of the Taegeuk until I could get it correct.
2. Right now I'm working on the double-side-kick from Koryo Hyung. I'm not rotating my body enough, so I've been drilling just the first couple steps of the form the last couple of weeks.
3. (Keep in mind we just started doing the Taegeuks) quite often I won't end on the same spot as I started. There are a couple of forms, #s 4-7 to be specific, where I had inconsistent stances and ended up either forward or backward of my starting spot. So I practiced over and over to figure out where my problem stances were, in order to fix my problem and do the form correctly.
4. One of our local forms has a 360 hook kick with the right leg. My 360 hook kick is amazing...with my left leg. I look like a baby giraffe when I do the kick with my right leg. So I've drilled the kick to be properly done.
5. The latest local form I'm working on, I wasn't sure on one of the steps which stances I'm supposed to be in. So I asked my Master. Turns out I was wrong. I was using a longer stance than I should have been. So I adjusted and now I'm trying to build my habit with the correct stance.

I'm not perfect. But the goal is to push towards doing the forms more and more correct, which is to be a more and more exact copy of what I am being taught. If I were to go to another school and practice the Taegeuk forms, I would expect the other school to have the same exact details and rules as what I learned. If they do the form differently than my school did, it means one of the schools was doing it wrong. The forms are standardized.

Everything you say is true and just part of the natural progression of someone learning any MA. The ebb and tide as we go through the learning curves is a good and natural thing. If you go to another school who is doing a form differently and tell them they are doing the form wrong is not apropos at all and is going to get some hard looks and bad feelings. The only context this would be appropriate in would be if the instructor was asking for you help with the forms.
TKD is loosing SO much in pushing the standardization of forms Outside of competition. You need to noodle out that there is a very important difference.

You gave a very cogent explanation of some of the particulars of Taeguek 3. Details, details, details. Why are you so convinced that it is any different for the Yudanja poomsae?

 

[dvcochran]

So that in 50 years when my student's student's student is teaching the form, they're learning the same form that I was taught by my Master.

Sadly, if the previous 50 years is an indication of the next 50 years, I doubt the forms you are learning now will mean much of anything. So, try to wrap you head around this; 30 years from today you are texting with a precocious, relatively new MA'ist who is convinced they have it all figured out and that there is only One way to do certain things. Chew on that for a while and let me know how you would respond to them.

And it's easily possible. In my demonstration team, we do this. We time the forms to be done at the same time, in the same way by everyone. The details of the form are copied by everyone so it doesn't look like 15 random people performing similar movements. This is how coordinated dance groups build dance routines. I've seen dance groups with scores of people in perfect synchronicity. This is expected of forms demonstration teams, dance groups, cheerleaders, any performance profession where you're performing as a group. That's how other sports like gymnastics and diving work - the more correct you do techniques, the better your score. There are specific details the judges look at when you do a dive, specific requirements for every technique you do in gymnastics. Those must be met in order for the best score.

I have competed a lot, been to thousands of tournament both amateur and professional (paid). Made it all the way to the 1988 Olympic trials (now called the USA Nationals), so you are demeaning my efforts and just coming off sounding stupid when you try this lower table explanation of competition. EVERYBODY knows these things.
This is exactly why only certain people are on your demonstration team. Because some people are better than others and certain people (body type, etc...) look and fit together better as a group. This isn't new information. Rather nose on your face stuff.
What you will hopefully learn in time is that there are people who are doing technique exactly right in every measurable and will never get 1st place at any tournament.

 

[skribs]

Why are you so convinced that it is any different for the Yudanja poomsae?

Um...I don't think it's different. It's the exact same process.

Sadly, if the previous 50 years is an indication of the next 50 years, I doubt the forms you are learning now will mean much of anything. So, try to wrap you head around this; 30 years from today you are texting with a precocious, relatively new MA'ist who is convinced they have it all figured out and that there is only One way to do certain things. Chew on that for a while and let me know how you would respond to them.

In the KKW forms, there is only one way to do things.

I have competed a lot, been to thousands of tournament both amateur and professional (paid). Made it all the way to the 1988 Olympic trials (now called the USA Nationals), so you are demeaning my efforts and just coming off sounding stupid when you try this lower table explanation of competition. EVERYBODY knows these things.
This is exactly why only certain people are on your demonstration team. Because some people are better than others and certain people (body type, etc...) look and fit together better as a group. This isn't new information. Rather nose on your face stuff.
What you will hopefully learn in time is that there are people who are doing technique exactly right in every measurable and will never get 1st place at any tournament.

You say it's "lower table explanation" but yet you seem to have not yet grasped it.

The people on my demonstration team are the ones who have shown themselves most capable of learning the details of the form and copying it exactly. You're kind of proving my point here. The students with a more detailed understanding of the forms get chosen to demonstrate them. The students with less detailed focus on the forms do not.

 

[dvcochran]

Um...I don't think it's different. It's the exact same process.

No and

In the KKW forms, there is only one way to do things.

No and

The people on my demonstration team are the ones who have shown themselves most capable of learning the details of the form and copying it exactly. You're kind of proving my point here. The students with a more detailed understanding of the forms get chosen to demonstrate them. The students with less detailed focus on the forms do not.

Um...I don't think it's different. It's the exact same process.

Yes. This is Exactly what I said, once again.

 

[skribs]

No and

No and


Yes. This is Exactly what I said, once again.

At this point I don't even know what you're trying to say. You're not even making points, you're just arguing.

What I said is correct. You are to strive to replicate the form. If you can't perfectly replicate it, then you need to improve your understanding and performance of the form until you can. This is true of the Taegeuks and the Yudanja, this is how KKW forms are trained.

The fact that some people cannot replicate the form verbatim is not a refutation of my position. It's proof that some people aren't as good at the forms and have areas to improve.

That you think it is impossible to replicate the form someone else does sounds like an excuse.

 

[dvcochran]

At this point I don't even know what you're trying to say. You're not even making points, you're just arguing.

What I said is correct. You are to strive to replicate the form. If you can't perfectly replicate it, then you need to improve your understanding and performance of the form until you can. This is true of the Taegeuks and the Yudanja, this is how KKW forms are trained.

The fact that some people cannot replicate the form verbatim is not a refutation of my position. It's proof that some people aren't as good at the forms and have areas to improve.

That you think it is impossible to replicate the form someone else does sounds like an excuse.

No and no again.
There is Always interpretation in forms. That is a good thing. KKW does narrow this line within the performance realm but it is still there.
I am in no way saying Your forms are wrong or incorrect; I have never seen you do a form but that could be interesting.
I am saying not everyone else's is wrong because they fall outside the imaginary KKW lines.

 

[skribs]

No and no again.
There is Always interpretation in forms. That is a good thing. KKW does narrow this line within the performance realm but it is still there.
I am in no way saying Your forms are wrong or incorrect; I have never seen you do a form but that could be interesting.
I am saying not everyone else's is wrong because they fall outside the imaginary KKW lines.

Wow. Just wow. "The imaginary KKW lines." They made the forms, they define them.

This is reminding me of the "what is a pattern?" thread where someone was trying to prove he knew what a pattern was better than anyone in ITF.

 

[dvcochran]

Wow. Just wow. "The imaginary KKW lines." They made the forms, they define them.

This is reminding me of the "what is a pattern?" thread where someone was trying to prove he knew what a pattern was better than anyone in ITF.

Youtube 100 Kukkiwon forms. 100 of them will be different. Go to 100 Kukkiwon tournaments (which I am certain you have not) and audit the poomsae competition. The thousands of poomsae performed will be different. Go to 100 Kukkiwon schools. 100 schools will be different. This can keep going on and on.

 

[dvcochran]

At this point I don't even know what you're trying to say. You're not even making points, you're just arguing.

What I said is correct. You are to strive to replicate the form. If you can't perfectly replicate it, then you need to improve your understanding and performance of the form until you can. This is true of the Taegeuks and the Yudanja, this is how KKW forms are trained.

The fact that some people cannot replicate the form verbatim is not a refutation of my position. It's proof that some people aren't as good at the forms and have areas to improve.

That you think it is impossible to replicate the form someone else does sounds like an excuse.

This will come with age for you; hopefully not with injury like many of us. You Will learn how to change and adapt everything you do in your MA. This does Not make it wrong. Hell, sometimes you will find it make you better.
If you cannot find this spirit within yourself when the time comes, you will become one of the many, many MA casualties.

 

[skribs]

Youtube 100 Kukkiwon forms. 100 of them will be different. Go to 100 Kukkiwon tournaments (which I am certain you have not) and audit the poomsae competition. The thousands of poomsae performed will be different. Go to 100 Kukkiwon schools. 100 schools will be different. This can keep going on and on.

Simply false. I've followed several guides and they do replicate the forms the same.

Those that are different are wrong. And it's not 100:100 like you said.

This will come with age for you; hopefully not with injury like many of us. You Will learn how to change and adapt everything you do in your MA. This does Not make it wrong. Hell, sometimes you will find it make you better.
If you cannot find this spirit within yourself when the time comes, you will become one of the many, many MA casualties.

I have had crippling injuries that took me out of practice. I've had a baker's cyst in my knee that made a lot of things impossible (sometimes even walking). I had a shoulder injury so bad I could barely touch my other shoulder. Some things I actually improved while injured (doing it more correctly hurt less). Other things I had to deal with being subpar until I could heal.

One can simultaneously hold the ideal of replicating the form and the knowledge of how the form should truly look, while being unable to perform the form up to that level. I just do the form to the level that I can.

Don't BS me. Don't tell me I can't know something because I haven't experienced it. I've experienced more than you think I have. Don't make excuses that I don't know how it really works because of X, Y, or Z.

 

[dvcochran]

Simply false. I've followed several guides and they do replicate the forms the same.

Those that are different are wrong. And it's not 100:100 like you said.



I have had crippling injuries that took me out of practice. I've had a baker's cyst in my knee that made a lot of things impossible (sometimes even walking). I had a shoulder injury so bad I could barely touch my other shoulder. Some things I actually improved while injured (doing it more correctly hurt less). Other things I had to deal with being subpar until I could heal.

One can simultaneously hold the ideal of replicating the form and the knowledge of how the form should truly look, while being unable to perform the form up to that level. I just do the form to the level that I can.

Don't BS me. Don't tell me I can't know something because I haven't experienced it. I've experienced more than you think I have. Don't make excuses that I don't know how it really works because of X, Y, or Z.

 

[paitingman]

There were/are different ways to perform Taeguk forms.

I kept up with little changes KKW made over the years.
But circa maybe like 2009 you would've never seen someone perform the Taeguk forms as they are performed today.
The sport poomsae overhaul totally revamped the forms for competition, but there are still many ways to train the forms.
I like sport poomsae, but I wouldn't consider there to be one official, correct way to train the forms.
There's just one correct way to do it if you want to win gold.

 

[paitingman]

Sport poomsae guidelines are just modern competition standards.
It's not Taekwondo gospel or something.