Opinion needed on a fighting system

[Gerry Seymour]

The bottom line is he charges what people are willing to pay. I remember reading Bruce Lee would charge $2000. an hour.
If you don't like the price or the value you get for the money, ,move along.

I've had folks complain about the cost of training seminars (outside MA). They forget what all goes into some of them:

• equipment purchased/rented
• cost of space
• hours spent preparing
• cost of administration
• travel, perhaps lodging

If I put 10 people in a room at $200 for 6 hours, they feel like my company is making a ****-ton of money ($2,000 for 6 hours). In reality, that's not a high profit margin activity at that rate.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think you are looking at the system from a martial artist's stand point that is wrong. SPEAR is designed for someone to be able to deal with the the violence in the world who aren't martial artists, both attacker and defender, you and I are a SMALL minority my friend. Would I replace SPEAR with my training? Hell no but that doesn't say it won't work for 99% of the encounters most people will bump into on the street either.

I never said it wouldn't work. Just stating that many people already get this with their martial arts training. The techniques in SPEAR will only work if the person drills them until they are natural. You can spend 8 hours teaching this to someone who doesn't know martial arts, and they could still easily fail to apply the techniques that were taught including the flinch based ones.

The person could be attack and still go through the thought process of "Now what was that SPEAR technique." Many of those techniques that he uses comes from various martial art systems. So there would be no reason to think that students of an 8 hour seminar who don't take martial arts would be able to learn how to apply those techniques in a real fight situation sooner than someone who has been drilling similar techniques in a class that they have been taking for more than a year.

Ignoring all of the above however I have yet to study in a MA school that sits us down and talks about how real fights actually start, the cues we need to look for etc. I learned them, sometimes the hardway, and these are the most important in self defense as a civilian because if you read them right you don't need to say "oh **** it's on" like I need to on "the clock" you can say "oh ****, RUN" which I will do if not in my town or on the clock (sorry going home to family in my number one job).

All of the Martial Arts schools that I've seen that have a strong focus on self defense talk about these things in detail. Martial Arts schools that focus on forms competition, self-confidence, and other self-improvement elements tend not to go into detail when it comes to self-defense.

Its the non physical dynamics that make the system really valuable though. The training on body language, how to go from "jack in the box" to fight when you thought everything was fine. This is how real world fights work and in all my years I have yet to walk into a MA school that teaches this skill set. If you teach that set sir, I wish you were in my State, that is genuine btw, not sarcasm.

I don't know everything, but I would be more than happy to share what I do know and things that I've actually used to in real life confrontations. I would also be more than happy to learn things from you as well. I'm not saying this as a replacement for the seminar, but as a sharing of information, knowledge, and perspectives.

 

[frank raud]

I've had folks complain about the cost of training seminars (outside MA). They forget what all goes into some of them:

• equipment purchased/rented
• cost of space
• hours spent preparing
• cost of administration
• travel, perhaps lodging

If I put 10 people in a room at $200 for 6 hours, they feel like my company is making a ****-ton of money ($2,000 for 6 hours). In reality, that's not a high profit margin activity at that rate.

I've brought instructors up to Canada from Chicago, Lousianna, New York and Mississippi. Just the travel costs sometimes make it difficult to break even. I remember going to a Larry Hartsell seminar in Montreal that was not well attended. The organizer said it would have been cheaper for him to fly to California and train with Larry, as opposed to what it cost to bring him up and be unable to recoup his costs.

 

[Buka]

I used to bring instructors from other dojos in the area into my dojo, and pay them to teach seminars. I did that a lot, wanted my students to see what else there was out there other than what we did. (please don't immediately dismiss that, it's actually really good)

I used to bring in EMTs, doctors, sports trainers, boxers, shooting instructors, cops (crime prevention) to teach seminars. I used to bring in Rickson Gracie, Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis. The best way to do that, if they're not already scheduled to be in your area, is to set up seminars in surrounding areas, say a hundred miles. It keeps the costs down, plus, if you do it right, you get to go to all of them for free, usually assisting them. (getting your butt kicked)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I used to bring instructors from other dojos in the area into my dojo, and pay them to teach seminars. I did that a lot, wanted my students to see what else there was out there other than what we did. (please don't immediately dismiss that, it's actually really good)

I used to bring in EMTs, doctors, sports trainers, boxers, shooting instructors, cops (crime prevention) to teach seminars. I used to bring in Rickson Gracie, Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis. The best way to do that, if they're not already scheduled to be in your area, is to set up seminars in surrounding areas, say a hundred miles. It keeps the costs down, plus, if you do it right, you get to go to all of them for free, usually assisting them. (getting your butt kicked)

This is something I'd really love to do. I got a lot out of seeing other arts - even if only for a day with some - and it advanced my understanding of my primary art immeasurably. If I ever manage to grow my program large enough, I'll do some of this. For now, I try to make friends and invite experienced practitioners from other arts and from other schools withing NGA to drop in on classes, in hopes of exposing students to other views.

 

[Juany118]

I never said it wouldn't work. Just stating that many people already get this with their martial arts training. The techniques in SPEAR will only work if the person drills them until they are natural. You can spend 8 hours teaching this to someone who doesn't know martial arts, and they could still easily fail to apply the techniques that were taught including the flinch based ones.

The person could be attack and still go through the thought process of "Now what was that SPEAR technique." Many of those techniques that he uses comes from various martial art systems. So there would be no reason to think that students of an 8 hour seminar who don't take martial arts would be able to learn how to apply those techniques in a real fight situation sooner than someone who has been drilling similar techniques in a class that they have been taking for more than a year.

All of the Martial Arts schools that I've seen that have a strong focus on self defense talk about these things in detail. Martial Arts schools that focus on forms competition, self-confidence, and other self-improvement elements tend not to go into detail when it comes to self-defense.

I don't know everything, but I would be more than happy to share what I do know and things that I've actually used to in real life confrontations. I would also be more than happy to learn things from you as well. I'm not saying this as a replacement for the seminar, but as a sharing of information, knowledge, and perspectives.

My main point though is what you teach, what I study, it requires training multiple times a month and almost daily practice. A system like SPEARS, in terms of the physical techniques, is designed around the idea of taking as much advantage as possible of natural human reflexes to stimulus. This makes not only the training itself easier but also makes for less perishable skills.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I've had folks complain about the cost of training seminars (outside MA). They forget what all goes into some of them:

• equipment purchased/rented
• cost of space
• hours spent preparing
• cost of administration
• travel, perhaps lodging

If I put 10 people in a room at $200 for 6 hours, they feel like my company is making a ****-ton of money ($2,000 for 6 hours). In reality, that's not a high profit margin activity at that rate.

How much would the expenses be for a 10 person seminar? Assuming no real travel/lodging funds, since Im guessing that would vary a lot based on the space. I do not do seminars as I dont even teach currently, so I don't really have a way to conceptualize the costs involved.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How much would the expenses be for a 10 person seminar? Assuming no real travel/lodging funds, since Im guessing that would vary a lot based on the space. I do not do seminars as I dont even teach currently, so I don't really have a way to conceptualize the costs involved.

If there's no real travel cost, then my costs go way down. The cost of the space becomes the biggest factor other than the cost of my time. Space can range from free (rarely) to several hundred dollars a day. If I was doing a 10-person seminar, I'd probably be paying $200-400 for the space.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My main point though is what you teach, what I study, it requires training multiple times a month and almost daily practice. A system like SPEARS, in terms of the physical techniques, is designed around the idea of taking as much advantage as possible of natural human reflexes to stimulus. This makes not only the training itself easier but also makes for less perishable skills.

You keep talking about SPEARS as if it's different from the martial arts that are taught. The same exact techniques that he teaches and uses are found in other martial arts systems. Show me a S.P.E.A.R technique and 8 times out of 10, I can probably show that same concept in multiple martial art systems.

S.P.E.A.R. takes martial arts techniques and turns it into an applications class. Unfortunately there are many martial art schools out there that don't have a dedicated day for training application of a technique which is why some of this stuff may look new.

 

[Juany118]

You keep talking about SPEARS as if it's different from the martial arts that are taught. The same exact techniques that he teaches and uses are found in other martial arts systems. Show me a S.P.E.A.R technique and 8 times out of 10, I can probably show that same concept in multiple martial art systems.

S.P.E.A.R. takes martial arts techniques and turns it into an applications class. Unfortunately there are many martial art schools out there that don't have a dedicated day for training application of a technique which is why some of this stuff may look new.

Some of it yes, but there is A LOT more than what you see on most of the YouTube videos. Maybe it's focused on in the LEO courses but there is a lot about exploiting your own natural flinch reflex (like in the video I showed) and other natural human reactions to address the initial conflict. It isn't close to any regular TMA class I have taken in however many decades of A. TMA training and B. Practical street application.

He isn't the only only out there btw, but there are a lot of combative systems floating around that work on similar principles that while I do not prefer personally, I would also have to admit are better for the average person who won't put in the time I am willing to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some of it yes, but there is A LOT more than what you see on most of the YouTube videos. Maybe it's focused on in the LEO courses but there is a lot about exploiting your own natural flinch reflex (like in the video I showed) and other natural human reactions to address the initial conflict. It isn't close to any regular TMA class I have taken in however many decades of A. TMA training and B. Practical street application.

He isn't the only only out there btw, but there are a lot of combative systems floating around that work on similar principles that while I do not prefer personally, I would also have to admit are better for the average person who won't put in the time I am willing to.

Actually, I spend a lot of time teaching students how to leverage flinch reactions. I show them how to recognize a good next action (which Classical Technique is available) while in the middle of that first action, which is often based on a flinch response.

 

[Juany118]

Actually, I spend a lot of time teaching students how to leverage flinch reactions. I show them how to recognize a good next action (which Classical Technique is available) while in the middle of that first action, which is often based on a flinch response.

But is that actually part of the MA you teach or is that your own addition to the curriculum? Most TMAs I have studied are about using training and practice to developed more refined techniques that, to an extent, replace the flinch response. I think the video I linked above shows something to that effect. He shows what one might naturally do if a swing comes in vs a "trained" response.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Actually, I spend a lot of time teaching students how to leverage flinch reactions

Same here. The students don't listen to me yet but the light bulb will come on one day, after they learn to stop forcing the techniques. lol. One of the biggest problems that Martial Art students, instructors, and teachers often is forcing the techniques and trying to make a technique work instead of just letting it happen. When we swat at flies we just let it happen.

My natural flinch response used to be to catch a fly, until the day I caught one that stung. Because of that bee my flinch response is to swat. In my mind martial arts techniques work the same way. Our natural flinch may be lean forward to grab a leg when someone kicks, but through training we learn to leg check. We don't train to get rid of the flinch, we just train the action that should come with the flinch.

 

[Buka]

You keep talking about SPEARS as if it's different from the martial arts that are taught. The same exact techniques that he teaches and uses are found in other martial arts systems. Show me a S.P.E.A.R technique and 8 times out of 10, I can probably show that same concept in multiple martial art systems.

S.P.E.A.R. takes martial arts techniques and turns it into an applications class. Unfortunately there are many martial art schools out there that don't have a dedicated day for training application of a technique which is why some of this stuff may look new.

I'll bet you would like the course, at least if he was teaching. Bet you would learn something. Maybe not anything earth shattering, but I'd bet you would pick something up that you would find valuable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'll bet you would like the course, at least if he was teaching. Bet you would learn something. Maybe not anything earth shattering, but I'd bet you would pick something up that you would find valuable.

I don't have any doubt that I would learn something. The entire benefit that I've found just by talking to people from other systems is that I learn something. Sometimes another system has a technique whose application shines a light on a technique that is in the system that I study.

I guess what I'm really trying to stress is the importance of digging deeper into the techniques that we study and try to understand the mechanics of it and it's numerous applications. Sometimes people think that something is new (MMA) and don't realize that it's just something that has be renamed and repackaged.
But I'll get off my soap box now.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But is that actually part of the MA you teach or is that your own addition to the curriculum? Most TMAs I have studied are about using training and practice to developed more refined techniques that, to an extent, replace the flinch response. I think the video I linked above shows something to that effect. He shows what one might naturally do if a swing comes in vs a "trained" response.

There's a bit of both. It's more ingrained in Shojin-ryu than in the mainline curriculum. Even in mine, the concept is over time to replace the flinch with some adaptations that make it easier to access the techniques, but I start from the flinch response (in fact, the first block I teach is based on it), and work from there, refining as their skill grows.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Same here. The students don't listen to me yet but the light bulb will come on one day, after they learn to stop forcing the techniques. lol. One of the biggest problems that Martial Art students, instructors, and teachers often is forcing the techniques and trying to make a technique work instead of just letting it happen. When we swat at flies we just let it happen.

My natural flinch response used to be to catch a fly, until the day I caught one that stung. Because of that bee my flinch response is to swat. In my mind martial arts techniques work the same way. Our natural flinch may be lean forward to grab a leg when someone kicks, but through training we learn to leg check. We don't train to get rid of the flinch, we just train the action that should come with the flinch.

Agreed. My students are trained to stop in place when I say "stop". When I see someone trying to force a technique, I say, "Stop. Forcing that won't work. Find what's already there."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'll bet you would like the course, at least if he was teaching. Bet you would learn something. Maybe not anything earth shattering, but I'd bet you would pick something up that you would find valuable.

I would hope to learn something. I'd hope to pick up at least one thing that really changes something I do already - nearly every seminar I've ever attended has provided at least one of those.

 

[Juany118]

There's a bit of both. It's more ingrained in Shojin-ryu than in the mainline curriculum. Even in mine, the concept is over time to replace the flinch with some adaptations that make it easier to access the techniques, but I start from the flinch response (in fact, the first block I teach is based on it), and work from there, refining as their skill grows.

I think the issue may the then, that to an extent, both you and Jow may be projecting (a little) because most instructors of TMAs, in my experience, are about how you should train in the techniques until they become natural because they are more effective than the natural responses, which include the flinch response. They will stop you if you appear to be forcing the technique, but they will typically simply say "slow it down, you are forcing it..." Etc.

There should be more teachers like you guys out there btw. Too many people get certified (by whatever method) and and don't actually understand self defense and martial arts knowledge are necessarily synonymous.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think the issue may the then, that to an extent, both you and Jow may be projecting (a little) because most instructors of TMAs, in my experience, are about how you should train in the techniques until they become natural because they are more effective than the natural responses, which include the flinch response. They will stop you if you appear to be forcing the technique, but they will typically simply say "slow it down, you are forcing it..." Etc.

I'm not sure about what is meant by forcing a technique when they tell you to "slow it down." When I say slow down it is usually related to control. Sometimes students will try to do things faster than they are able to handle and as a result technique falls apart.

For me forcing a technique is not about the speed or the power. It's more about using a technique that doesn't work natural for the position that they are in.

For example, I would have been screaming at Victor Moore (0:36) mark for trying to parry a punch starting from his waist. He was forcing a technique that was never designed to be used from that position.

I would have yelled "Do we train like that in class? Then why would you stand like that with your hands to the side and expect it to work." lol. He would have a long 2 hour lecture about something that only takes less than 2 minutes to understand. If Bruce Lee told him to stand like that, then he should have said. Nah bruh!! It don't work that way. lol
I don't think I've heard of "technique forcing" as something that relates to "slow it down" is that related to muscling technique? When I hear slow it down, it's usually because someone is trying to do a technique faster than they are capable of doing. The faster someone goes the more likely a technique will fall apart. So speed and technique are often trained with the goal of being able to go fast without destroying or short cutting technique.

What is usually happening when they are saying "slow it down" are they doing forms or is someone punching too hard?