Open vs. Closed Hand

[beau_safken]

Hmmm To say open or closed is kinda limiting... I just equat all my skills to various tools. Some work better in some cases and its always better to just go with the flow. I much prefer to lead opponents into my elbows or go in for arm bar's and the like. Its much more fun and doesnt injure my body in the process.

 

[tshadowchaser]

a hit to the temple be it a palm heel, knife edge, or closed fist can still knock someone out.
Bones in your hand can be broken no matter which of the above techniques above you use when hitting different areas of the body


Now as far as stopping someone I think I have stoped a few opponents with all of the above

 

[bdparsons]

There comes a certain point where comparing open and closed hand strikes is a bit of a moot point.. With proper training an individual can generate just as much power and cause just as much damage with open vs. closed hand or vice versa.

Think on this... unbiased witnesses to a a self defense situation remember mostly gross details. You have a much better chance of giving the impression that your actions are purely self defense if your hands remain open. This holds true even when that lines blurs as to what is defense and what is offense.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[MJS]

There comes a certain point where comparing open and closed hand strikes is a bit of a moot point.. With proper training an individual can generate just as much power and cause just as much damage with open vs. closed hand or vice versa.

True, power can be generated using either strike. I'm looking at what is going to minimize injury to the hand.

Think on this... unbiased witnesses to a a self defense situation remember mostly gross details. You have a much better chance of giving the impression that your actions are purely self defense if your hands remain open. This holds true even when that lines blurs as to what is defense and what is offense.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

Agreed. Open hands is certainly going to look less threatening on the defenders part in the bystanders eyes.

Mike

 

[Shaolinwind]

When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice? For me, I prefer an open hand strike such as a palm heel, a hammerfist or an elbow over hitting with my closed fist. IMO, you're going to run less of a chance of getting a hand injury with an open handed strike. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not saying that a closed fist is a bad idea, just taking into consideration that it may not always be the best choice.

Thoughts?

Something makes me love the willow leaf palm.. It's Like a whipping rather than a bludgeoning, I dig that.

 

[Hand Sword]

I like the open hand strikes because they can be speacialized by fitting into certain area that get you better results, than trying to beat someone into submission (just watch out for your palm heel ending up with teeth in it---LOL!)

 

[CuongNhuka]

if you look at how the hand and wrist are constructed you'll notice you have to get alot of bones into alignment, or you risk breaking your hand from a punch. it's anatomy. but do the same with a palm strike. your using the same muscles, in the same way. but if you use two palm strikes, you run the risk of inducing massive pain (or death) to your opponent. there is a basic Ving Tseun drill that is meant to develop flow, and condition some of your arms. there are many uses and applications. but if you look at one of the sides closely you'll notice that part of the application is a neck break. that persons hands are open.
so for me, i keep them closed so i don't risk damageing my opponent to much. acctuly, i kick if i think your a minor threat. or use some aikido-esc technigues to restrain you. then punch if your more of a threat. and a major threat i use palm strikes and grappling. the grappling that is taught in Cuong Nhu is based in Aikido & Judo. but there is some that is modified Jui Jitsu (i know that Aikido & Judo are drawn from one form of Ju Jitsu or other, but i mean some of the scarier stuff). and i also know some other, random, i'm not sure were it's from stuff. so image what me grappling might entale.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

 

[samurai69]

To Punch or Not to Punch, That is the Question!
By George Demetriou

It's not uncommon. Police officer attempts to arrest suspect, suspect violently resists, officer delivers punch to suspect's head. Officer injures hand. Many officers have broken their hands, and most will say injuries are a reality of the job. Maybe, but what if there was an alternative to punching that was safer and more effective?

Actually there is. The palm strike. It's the heel of the palm you make contact with, but it's referred to as a palm strike. To execute a palm strike, its important to have the right hand position. The hand is pulled back as far as possible, locking the wrist and the fingers should be allowed to curl slightly forward. The palm and finger tips should face the target. Contact is made with the very bottom of the palm just before the wrist.

Officer Safety - Palm Strike vs. Fisted Strikes

When knuckles meet skull during a confrontation, the skull will always win. I don't think anyone will argue that former heavyweight Champ Mike Tyson is an accomplished puncher. When Mr. Tyson punched former Heavyweight contender Mitch Green on the head, Tyson's hand broke. Neither man wore gloves for the bout. The fight took place on a Harlem street corner. You can see why boxers pay someone good money to tape their hands.

My question to those in law enforcement is: If men who get paid lots of money to punch people, who train constantly to develop their punches, break their hands in street fights what makes you think it won't happen to you?

Strong hand injuries are the number one arrest-related injury in police work. This will continue as long as defensive tactics are strongly influenced by martial arts (this includes boxing) that emphasize fisted strikes.

"The most common injury occurs when you strike with the last two knuckles. The 5th metacarpal breaks (between the knuckles of the middle finger and pinkie), commonly referred to as a boxer's fracture," states James Prattas, MD of Metropolitan Hospital in NYC. Dr. Prattas, also a martial artist stated, "I can't think of any reason to strike with a fist over using a palm strike."

"A fracture will take 6-8 weeks to heal, while a sprain (tear in ligament) could take up to 6 months to heal. Rehabilitation could take 3-4 months, according to Faye Grant, a Registered Occupational Therapist, from the Hand Therapy Center, in Floral Park, NY.

Police officers who seriously injured their hands during a violent confrontation were asked if they thought they could get a solid grip on their firearms after the injury. The answer was sometimes, "I don't know," but most often just, "No."

"Grip strength comes from the ulnar side (pinky side) of the hand. A boxer's fracture would significantly affect your grip. Try to hold anything with a handle without using your fourth finger," says Stuart Kandel, Orthopedic Surgeon from Bay Shore, NY. "It would be much easier to disarm an officer who received this fracture."

The Medical Doctors, Physical Therapists and Occupational Therapists the author interviewed all agreed that with the palm strike done correctly the chances of injuring the hand are slim. "The position of Maximum Boney stability in the hand is the close-pack position which is full extension of the hand. Full extension of the hand is the palm strike position," according to Bill Partridge, Physical Therapist of Nassau/Suffolk Physical Therapy in Syosset, NY.

Taking shooting and/or firearm retention into consideration, the palm strike seems to be the logical choice of strikes.

Another serious health related problem we have to consider is cutting the knuckles on the perpetrator's teeth. Punches are usually directed to the head area including the face. The mouth is something you definitely want to avoid. However the teeth may be struck inadvertently. "Everyone you encounter violently has AIDS, until proven otherwise, humans have the most infectious mouths, once you break skin you are introducing all those germs to your body", says Dr. Prattas. "The heel of the palm making impact with the mouth distributes contact area equally making it difficult to break skin if the teeth are struck. With a punch, one knuckle may hit the teeth, breaking skin easily."

"The skin on the dorsal side (top of the hand) is easily cut because it is very thin. The opposite is true of the skin on the palm," says O.T.R. Faye Grant.

According to Dr. Kandel, "When you open your hand from a fist tendons pull back. If the knuckles are cut when a full taut fist strikes teeth the act of opening the hand pulls bacteria in. Serious infection can set in 24-48 hours later".

Germs do not fester as easily in the fleshy palm of the hand as they do in the knuckles. There have been cases where cuts caused by human teeth on knuckles resulted in the hand being surgically removed to stop the spread of Gangrene.

Effectiveness of Palm Strikes

The palm strike is safe for the officer to use, but it's also quite effective. A palm strike done on a slightly upward angle has a tremendous amount of leverage. One need only to strike a heavy bag suspended from a stand or ceiling to see this. Compare the reactions of the bag when you punch or palm strike. There's a more violent jump in the bag when you palm strike.

Punches have a primary effect on the target struck. A punch to the head will usually affect the area the knuckles made contact with. Palm strikes have a secondary effect. A palm strike to the head won't cause much damage to the contact point, but will have an effect on the neck and usually jars the body. A palm strike done under the chin will often produce a one shot knock-out due to the whip lash effect. A palm strike anywhere to the head area will almost always affect balance, because the strike will take the assailant's ears out of line with his hips. This opens up other parts of the body for combinations or a takedown. The palm strike can be used effectively to the head, body, hip socket and knees. Punches are best used against muscular parts of the body to avoid injury to the puncher. Palm strikes are good to grab off of and make it easier to strike someone with an object in your hand. You never know when you'll get caught having to strike while you are holding your radio and firearm.

Another nice bonus of palm strikes is they don't seem as violent as clenching your fist and striking someone. Having your hands open will make the strike to appear a push to the untrained eye. Palm strikes will go over better than punches on the evening news.

The Fist Reflex

An involuntary discharge experiment conducted by International Defensive Tactics and Research Foundation (I.D.T.) between December 1991 and September 1993 showed that being trained to use your fists may lead to having an involuntary discharge.

Phil Messina, President of Modern Warrior® Defensive Tactics Institute states, "The fist reflex is a response which occurs when an individual psychologically associates making a fist with high stress confrontational situations".

All experiment participants were police officers, male and female with an average time in service of three and one half years. No Modern Warrior® students were permitted to participate. One group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with their fists, the second group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with open hands and the third group just did the final stress simulation. The final simulation consisted of having an officer enter a smoke filled room, where the smoke has an odor and taste, strobe lights are on, the terrain is obstructed and wind is created by the use of high speed fans. All senses are overloaded. Suddenly gunshots go off (on tape) and a figure comes running at the officer waving hands and screaming. The figure runs into the officer unless the officer moves away. This scenarios purpose is to stress out the officer enough to cause an involuntary discharge of the officer's firearm.

Each group had 50 participants. From the fist group there were 18 involuntary discharges. Nine of those officers had their finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the non-fist group there were 3 involuntary discharges, with 2 finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the control group 1 finger off trigger prior to discharge.

"Post Experiment interviews strongly indicated that a high percentage of participants who had involuntary discharges had studied martial arts emphasizing fisted strikes. Boxers were foremost in this category," said Messina.

Based partially on these experiments Modern Warrior® DT Institute has taken all fisted strikes out of their Police Defensive Tactics curriculum and replaced them with palm strikes and other open handed alternatives when counter striking becomes necessary.

Conclusion

Using fisted strikes as the primary hand technique of police defensive tactics training is a perfect example of how sport martial arts influence police training. Many DT Instructors have a boxing or karate background, they teach what they like to do. Defensive tactics has to be based on what law enforcement officers will encounter in the field, not what an instructor encountered in the ring. The primary strike should make sense for police work. The primary hand technique for law enforcement should be the palm strike. - GD

--------------------

Involuntary Discharge Experiment

Started December 1991, Ended September 1993

Total Participants - 168

Disqualified - 18

Reasons for disqualification:

1) Firearm remained in holster - 11

2) Hand injuries - 5

3) Equipment failure - 2

Interesting Notes:

1. All eleven subjects who did not draw weapons were N.Y.P.D.

2. All five injuries which caused disqualifications were from the fist group.

Participant Descriptions:

1. Fist group (struck heavy bags with fists for 30 min.)

2. Non-fist group (struck heavy bags with open hands for 30 min.)

3. Control group (just did final stress simulation.)

Final Simulation:

Officer entered an enclosed area to investigate possible man with a gun. As officer enters he finds himself (or herself) in a smoke filled room containing foul smell, pungent taste, strobe lights, high density fans and obstructed floor surface. All senses (sight, hearing, touch, smell, and taste) are overloaded. Suddenly gunshots go off and a figure comes running at officer waving hands in air and screaming loudly. Figure runs right into officer if officer cannot evade.

The purpose of this scenario is to create a high stress situation which is likely to cause an involuntary discharge of the officer’s firearm.

Group Makeup:
(Excluding disqualifications)

1. Fist group - 50 (47 males, 3 females)

2. Non-fist group - 50 (47 males, 3 females)

3. Control group - 50 (46 males, 4 females)

-

Average age - 29 years old

Range - 21 to 53 years of age

Average time in service - 3 and one-half years

Range - 1 to 24 years

Time on heavy bags - 30 minutes - in two minute rounds with two minutes on, two minutes off

Average number of strikes - 1500

Range - 800 - 3000

(No Modern Warrior students were permitted to participate.)

Results:

From fist group: (50 subjects)

Involuntary discharges - 18 (17 males and 1 female)

Finger off trigger prior to discharge - 9

From non fist group: (50 subjects)

Involuntary discharges - 3 (all males)

Finger off trigger prior to discharge - 2

From control group: (50 subjects)

Involuntary discharges - 4 (all males)

Finger off trigger prior to discharge - 1

Interesting Notes:

Of the 25 participants who had involuntary discharges almost half (12) had their finger off the trigger just prior to the discharge. This indicates that we cannot assume that an officer had his or her finger on the trigger just because his or her firearm discharged.

Hypothesis:

It appears that under high stress situations where a firearm is likely to be present, involuntary discharges may occur due to a phenomenon we now refer to as the “fist reflex.” The fist reflex is a response which occurs when an individual psychologically associates making a fist with high stress confrontational situations.

Although the fist reflex may be a natural instinct at birth (babies make fists when they cry) it appears in later years this becomes a “conditioned response” which may be reinforced or possibly minimized through training in later years. Post-experiment interviews strongly indicated that a high percentage of participants who had involuntary discharges had studied martial arts systems which emphasized making a fist while under stress. Boxers were foremost in this category.

Although it appeared that having one’s finger off the trigger had little affect on the fist reflex under these test conditions, the authors of this test still highly recommend that officers keep their fingers off their triggers for several other strategic reasons. Direct nerve trauma (getting hit on the arm) and attempted disarmings are just two of them. However as previously stated, these test results strongly suggest that we cannot automatically assume that an officer was walking around with his or her finger on the trigger on the sole basis that there was an involuntary discharge.

Recommendations:

It is recommended that law enforcement agencies conduct further experiments under high stress simulations to further study the “fist reflex” phenomenon.

It is further suggested that firearm discipline training must go further than just having range officers tell officers “just keep your finger off the trigger.”

It is also essential that agencies consider the fist reflex when deciding whether or not to indemnify an officer involved in an involuntary discharge litigation.

Based partially on these experiments Modern Warrior Defensive Tactics Institute has taken all fisted strikes out of their police defensive tactics curriculum and replaced them with palm strikes and other “open handed” alternatives when counter striking becomes necessary. Officers interviewed so far state that their confidence level is much higher. They have also found the actual street results of this new curriculum have proven highly effective, while hand injuries to officers have dramatically decreased. In 1995 a new study on involuntary discharges will be conducted using participants who have studied under this format.

In the meantime, it is recommended that law enforcement agencies reconsider use of fisted strikes in their defensive tactics curriculum, but not discontinue them without viable alternatives.

 

[KenpoTex]

thanks for posting that article...very interesting.

 

[WingChun Lawyer]

Just some thoughts...but I heard that, when you actually hurt your hand while punching someone with a fist (as opposed to an open palm), it is entirely possible that the injury will not prevent you from fighting.

In fact, one of my gym colleagues, who is a bouncer, once appeared with a cast on his arm. He told me he had damaged his hand while striking someone´s face bareknucle (at work), but it only started to hurt one week later! It certainly didn´t stop him from beating the hell out of the other guy.

The point is, in a self defense situation, can we rely on sych a "clean" wound to the hand, or is there the possibility that my hand injury will put me instantly out of combat? In a real encounter, I would be more than willing to risk damaging my hand if that means I´ll be able to give more punishment to my adversary - trading an injury for greater damage.

Anyone cares to comment on this?

 

[kickcatcher]

I once damaged (broke/fractured? not sure - never had it properly diagnosed) the small bones in BOTH of my insteps during a sparring match* so much that I could hardly walk for a week or two - and at the time I hardly noticed it. Adrenaline etc is a wonderful thing. Same applies for fists I think. Certainly know several people who have broken their hand hitting someone but only realised later. In fact, see the Gordeau fights from UFC1 - he broke his hand and had another guy's tooth embedded in one of his feet, but he kept on fighting, u.ltimately loosing in the final.

*I was doing low kicks badly, he was able to meet them with his knee consistantly.... but I kept trying it like the fool I am....

 

[Brother John]

When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice?

I am certainly not saying that a closed fist is a bad idea, just taking into consideration that it may not always be the best choice.

I'm with you in that, more often than not, I'd rather strike with the many "open" hand techniques rather than punching with the knuckles. BUT: I wouldn't claim one over the other as a "Tool of choice", because a tool is designed to fit the work needing done....and sometimes the "punch" or closed fist strike works better. It often depends on the target. Like you said, a closed fist isn't essentially "a bad idea", but it's not as universally appropriate as many martial artists are made to believe. That's why you end up with so many broken fingers/hand-bones and wrists. Wrong tool for the wrong job many times. Sometimes, however.....it's just what the doctor ordered.

Your Brother
John

 

[Hand Sword]

Agreed! Use the right tool that's needed at the right time. be flexible like bamboo!

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I think it was one of the WW II hand to hand guys, like Fairbairin or Applegate that said don't use a fist above the jawline. Good advice then and now. Personally, I like my "high block" to the jaw.

 

[Hand Sword]

Yep! knuckles versus skull bone, bad combo.

 

[BlackSheep]

In a real encounter, I would be more than willing to risk damaging my hand if that means I´ll be able to give more punishment to my adversary - trading an injury for greater damage.

Anyone cares to comment on this?

Well the trade off for using a fist in place of a heal palm, is a significant increase in the likelihood and severity of damage to yourself in exchange for a marginal increase in damage to your assailant.

 

[Brother John]

Just some thoughts...but I heard that, when you actually hurt your hand while punching someone with a fist (as opposed to an open palm), it is entirely possible that the injury will not prevent you from fighting.
The point is, in a self defense situation, can we rely on sych a "clean" wound to the hand, or is there the possibility that my hand injury will put me instantly out of combat? In a real encounter, I would be more than willing to risk damaging my hand if that means I´ll be able to give more punishment to my adversary - trading an injury for greater damage.
Anyone cares to comment on this?

I'd say that it's unadviseable under Any circumstances to "Rely on" a wound not being "clean" or not. The fact is, there's NO way to know until it happens....and if you're wrong, you could be Dead wrong.
Instead, why risk it??? Develop your open hand strikes to such a pitch that you don't need to worry as much about injuring yourself w/your own actions. The open hand strikes, if done correctly and to optimal targets... can be DEVASTATING.

I think this is a VERY good thread and hope that many instructors will take it to heart and pass the information along.
I'm just afraid that because it flies in the face of MUCH traditional instruction....it may be ignored.
hope I'm wrong in that.

Your Brother
John

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Ned Beaumont, who wrote "Championship Street Fighting: Boxing as a Martial Art", advocates that those trained in boxing skills, learn to use the same techniques, cross, hook, etc. using the Heal of the Hand. There is no reason why a powerful right cross can't be thrown using the palm as weapon - the only thing that changes is the range - you lose a few inches. Personally, I think someone could develop a significant CQ ability utilizing heel of the hand and elbow techniques and forgetting closed-hand punches - except, perhaps, the quick jab as distractor.

 

[Hand Sword]

I agree. The Jab -- VERY USEFUL. In CQ open hands, elbows, knees and headbutt, are the way to go.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

agreed. if you're going to use a closed fist, aim for a soft target. even then, there are better tools for the job.

gosh darn that john wayne and his looping haymakers.