Once a black belt...

[MJS]

When I was in junior high and high school in the mid 1980s I began training in Tracy kenpo and earned my shodan.

As the years went by, I driften away from kenpo and into other arts like capoeira and kung fu.

A couple years ago I decided to reconnect with my roots, and I found a Tracy kenpo teacher in the area where I now live. I tried to put on a white belt and start over, but he wouldn't allow it. He felt that once earned, it is forever.

However, I did start over with him in that I have been relearning everything from the ground up. I will also go thru the shodan test with a couple other students, when the time comes. Only then will he consider me eligible to begin training the material for rank beyond shodan. But in the mean time, he has recognized my rank that I earned about 20 years ago.

Very similar to what happened to me. I left my last school (Parker system) mostly due to work and not being able to get there. I joined another school, (Tracy) and began working my way thru the material. My current instructor told me to continue to wear my 3rd degree Black Belt. Once I complete the material, I too, will also be put thru a private test. Won't be anything like someone going thru the test for the first time, but mostly to put me thru the paces and show the material. From that point, I'll still continue my journey, learning the new material.

What I thought was really nice and was quite a surprise was when I went for the first class. Keep in mind I've been training there now for well over a year, so obviously this was a while back. When it was time to line up for the start of class, I was told to line up in the front, with the rest of the Black Belts that were teaching the class. I felt a bit odd at first, but they welcomed me into their family and respected the fact that I had already put in years to earn my belt.

 

[YoungMan]

Yes, you can be stripped of your rank. If you have committed extreme acts of disrespect or have grossly dishonored Taekwondo or your organization, the person who issued your rank to you can revoke it.
Your skills cannot be revoked. That is understood. However, the official recognition that you receives as an X Dan by members of your organization as well as whatever organizations recognize your rank can be withdrawn. You cannot teach (with any authorization), judge, officiate, or guide organization policies. Furthermore, the issuing instructor would most likely contact other organizations and tell them "Such and such is no longer recognized as an X Dan member of my organization."

 

[Twin Fist]

Reading the story about the guys instructor calling up the ymca and telling them "he isnt a black belt" the word that comes to my mind is "petty"

In the most important sense of the word no one can ever take your belt away. The Belt is knowledge, and they cant take that away from you.

 

[IcemanSK]

I'm not trying to be incensitive to the folks for whom this has happened due to the pettiness or whim of their instructor. As far as anyone who looses their rank due to some henious act, it is as it should be.

But I've got to ask the question, is there a rash of folks getting stripped of their ranks that I just haven't heard about? Does this really happen often? Even if someone looses their rank because of the whim or a falling out with their instructor, they can redeem that rank on their own merit, somehow. Since the skill cannot be taken away, surely competence can be proven. If the skills can no longer be proven due to age or disability, the past achievements & contribution to the Art is still recognized.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

..Always a black belt?

On another thread I was shocked into realizing that in some systems, it may be possible for one to lose a black belt, as in, have it taken away. Say it ain't so! :O How can this happen? Only under special circumstances, I hope..?

In Kenpo, my understanding was that once somebody was a black belt it was considered a forever thing. Yes, a person could cease training and go rusty, get out of shape, etc. but that in itself would not strip them of their rank. OTOH if they wanted to pick up again and train for the next level they would have some catching up to do of course. But taken away? It seems like sacriledge.

Please educate me about this! I don't ever want to "lose it" from whatever style I study.

At our school, I have seen students with attitude issues be told to shape up or they would 'lose' their belts. These have been kids who's attitudes suddenly improve; the idea of losing that belt was enough to jar them into behaving, no pushups necessary.

I have seen one adult student expelled from the school. He was not stripped of rank, however, simply told not to come back.

A black belt itself is less of an issue; it is the rank that counts. A major who is busted down to captain (if I have my military rank progression right) doesn't lose his purple heart, silver star, or any awards for marksmanship. His war record isn't altered. He simply loses some of the administrative authority and command responsibility that he had been awarded. His combat skill and knowledge of the military arts remain the same.

By the same token, a dan rank practitioner who either commits a serious crime (as mentioned earlier in the thread), damages the integrity of the school or organization through either dishonorable conduct or some other way, should certainly lose his or her rank within the organization. Yes, he or she will still have their cotton belt and certificate hanging on the wall. But a school or organization can and should police its membership.

I think that in a case of severe rust (not due to injury or illness), rather than losing rank, the student, upon return could simply be asked not to display his or her rank until they've brought their skills up to a level comensurate with that rank. This spares the student a level of embarrassment; a blackbelt who cannot keep up with a blue belt would be embarrassed. But the student is displaying a green belt, then he or she can take their time, renew their skills, and then be permited to wear the rank again. This may not take all that long; generally, a rusty student can get back into the grove very quickly.

With practitioners who suffer from a debilitating injury, severe illness, or simply are aged, I think that organizations and schools simply accept (as they should) that things happen sometimes that prevent people from using the skills that they had learned, but that the practitioner still is a reservior of knowledge and experience and will always be a valueable asset to the art.

Nobody expects an eighty seven year old master to be able to mop up a fifth dan forty year old at the top of their game in sparring or to be as crisp and solid when performing poomsae/hyung/kata. But that eighty seven year old master can impart a great deal of knowledge to the forty year old and very likely provide him or her with some of the keys needed to reaching the next level in their own training.

Many of the most valueable lessons that have been imparted to me by my masters have been through the imparting of knowledge, not through advanced drills. It is the knowledge has enabled me to get to the next level in my training, not just the physical drills.

Daniel

 

[tellner]

But I've got to ask the question, is there a rash of folks getting stripped of their ranks that I just haven't heard about? Does this really happen often? Even if someone looses their rank because of the whim or a falling out with their instructor, they can redeem that rank on their own merit, somehow. Since the skill cannot be taken away, surely competence can be proven. If the skills can no longer be proven due to age or disability, the past achievements & contribution to the Art is still recognized.

ISK, it happens more often than you believe. It's not a "rash". In some circles it's Standard Operating Procedure. FMA and IMA teachers are particularly prone to it. It isn't hard come up with a dozen prominent ones who almost routinely throw away many of their senior students. It generally comes with denials that they were ever certified or even trained with the instructor for any length of time. One friend of mine was actually crudely photoshopped out of old pictures.

When I was in a well known sub-branch of the Kenpo family there was a couple instances where teachers and high-ranking students had issues. The students were de-ranked, sometimes in humiliating public fashion and written out of history.

The Korean government never told General Choi that he had never studied Tae Kwon Do or been involved. But he went from "honored founder" to just one of many whose only accomplishment was coming up with the name. It was a matter of petty politics at the national level.

Or there's a local case of the Kendo teacher who founded a club thirty years ago. He was Shodan and was given Godan in Japan. Certificates, tests, whole nine yards. He's been active and can whip tournament champions half his age like they had a tail. But with changing political winds he's been asked to "re test" so that they can be sure his rank is "legitimate". His isn't the only case.

Skill and understanding remain. I suppose a person could "redeem their rank back" by humbly begging forgiveness and promising to do whatever the teacher wanted in order to be allowed to bask in the glory of the Organization again. Or he could polish his MA resume and spend years somewhere else getting the same rank from someone else.

That's not the point. It's the calculated insult of saying "What we gave you? What you spent years working towards? We're taking it away and pretending it never happened. If you grovel we might give it back. Or you can go do the same thing somewhere else. Maybe they'll give you credit for time served." That's the sort of thing that isn't made all better if you recite the dojo kun a few times and resolve to strive hard and selflessly for the unity of style and the glory of Lower Slobbovian Martial Culture.

 

[karate-dragon]

I have heard of instructors who have used it as threats and I don't get it - it seems to be a controlling thing used by an abusive crazy instructor. Here's another one - a "waiting" period after you test for a year or two as a trial even though you received the rank?? To me this just seems like a crazy controlling thing.

 

[IcemanSK]

ISK, it happens more often than you believe. It's not a "rash". In some circles it's Standard Operating Procedure. FMA and IMA teachers are particularly prone to it. It isn't hard come up with a dozen prominent ones who almost routinely throw away many of their senior students. It generally comes with denials that they were ever certified or even trained with the instructor for any length of time. One friend of mine was actually crudely photoshopped out of old pictures.

When I was in a well known sub-branch of the Kenpo family there was a couple instances where teachers and high-ranking students had issues. The students were de-ranked, sometimes in humiliating public fashion and written out of history.

The Korean government never told General Choi that he had never studied Tae Kwon Do or been involved. But he went from "honored founder" to just one of many whose only accomplishment was coming up with the name. It was a matter of petty politics at the national level.

Or there's a local case of the Kendo teacher who founded a club thirty years ago. He was Shodan and was given Godan in Japan. Certificates, tests, whole nine yards. He's been active and can whip tournament champions half his age like they had a tail. But with changing political winds he's been asked to "re test" so that they can be sure his rank is "legitimate". His isn't the only case.

Skill and understanding remain. I suppose a person could "redeem their rank back" by humbly begging forgiveness and promising to do whatever the teacher wanted in order to be allowed to bask in the glory of the Organization again. Or he could polish his MA resume and spend years somewhere else getting the same rank from someone else.

That's not the point. It's the calculated insult of saying "What we gave you? What you spent years working towards? We're taking it away and pretending it never happened. If you grovel we might give it back. Or you can go do the same thing somewhere else. Maybe they'll give you credit for time served." That's the sort of thing that isn't made all better if you recite the dojo kun a few times and resolve to strive hard and selflessly for the unity of style and the glory of Lower Slobbovian Martial Culture.

Your point is well taken, Tellner. :asian:

 

[exile]

Skill and understanding remain...[But] that's not the point. It's the calculated insult of saying "What we gave you? What you spent years working towards? We're taking it away and pretending it never happened. If you grovel we might give it back. Or you can go do the same thing somewhere else. Maybe they'll give you credit for time served." That's the sort of thing that isn't made all better if you recite the dojo kun a few times and resolve to strive hard and selflessly for the unity of style and the glory of Lower Slobbovian Martial Culture.

I have heard of instructors who have used it as threats and I don't get it - it seems to be a controlling thing used by an abusive crazy instructor.

These two statement zero on on what I think is the key issue. I would like to bet high that instances of (attempted) BB repossession on high minded grounds of moral deliquency or whatever are statistically drowned by the number of cases in which factional struggles within an association, or power-tripping or vindictiveness by a senior instructor, are the reason (remember the famous case in the history of TKD when Gen. Choi imposed a mass retesting on Kwan members from non-ODK/CDK schools as part of the organizational infighting in the early 1960s associated with the formation of TKD, as described in Dakin Burdick's 1997 JAMA article or its later version, or here:

Many individuals by the time they were inducted into the Korean armed forces already possessed a black belt from another kwan. Due to General Choi's influence, however, the rank of black belt was only accepted and transferable from students of Oh Do Kwan and Chung Do Kwan. Those practitioners who held black belts from other kwans had to be retrained and retested to be considered for official black belt status. This formulation, at the hands of General Choi, was questioned by many practitioners of the modern Korean martial arts.​

)

Five will get you ten—thousand, that is—that this kind of thing is far, far more common than the rescinding of a belt for sexual misconduct, dubious business ethics, public drunkenness or any of the other taboo violation which in theory might give your belt-ranking MA association a bad name. Unfortunately, MA schools and associations are not publically accountable, and there are no legal hedges in place, so far as I know, to protect practitioners against this sort of unilateral action. For this reason, any rescinding of an awarded belt needs to be viewed with the utmost skepticism, and suspicion of nasty motives on the part of the rescinding org.

 

[Kacey]

I have heard of instructors who have used it as threats and I don't get it - it seems to be a controlling thing used by an abusive crazy instructor. Here's another one - a "waiting" period after you test for a year or two as a trial even though you received the rank?? To me this just seems like a crazy controlling thing.

The "waiting" period depends on what you're waiting for. Too many students receive their black belts and are never seen from again; when I was in the USTF, they awarded the belt and certificate at the next event after testing (assuming you passed, that is), but student were not allowed to put black trim on the bottom edge of their dobok top until they had been actively training for 6 months after the test. It had nothing to do with whether or not you were a black belt, and everything to do with whether or not you continued to train - and I don't have a problem with that use of a waiting period.

 

[shujika]

"I have heard of instructors who have used it as threats and I don't get it - it seems to be a controlling thing used by an abusive crazy instructor."

THAT is the main objective IMO, be it an instructor, or an association that does the kicking/stripping. I can see either "kicking them out" (be it a class or assc.) and no longer recognizing the rank "within" the association, but stripping the rank, is solely for "intimidation" of other students. I know of several whom have been "removed" from our org. but I've never seen seen anyone "stripped" of rank, just no longer recognized within the assoc.

 

[tellner]

The "waiting" period depends on what you're waiting for. Too many students receive their black belts and are never seen from again;
...
It had nothing to do with whether or not you were a black belt, and everything to do with whether or not you continued to train - and I don't have a problem with that use of a waiting period.

While I'd like people to hang around it's not really my call. They're grownups and have their own agendas and goals. If they're looking for a certain level of skill and recognition that's what they're looking for. They won't be happy if they're forced to stick around. And as short timers they won't be as focused on training as the ones who are at a lower level or who are in for the longer term. If they've earned it, they get what they deserve. What they choose to do with the experience is their business. Ultimately everyone is happier that way.

 

[Kacey]

While I'd like people to hang around it's not really my call. They're grownups and have their own agendas and goals. If they're looking for a certain level of skill and recognition that's what they're looking for. They won't be happy if they're forced to stick around. And as short timers they won't be as focused on training as the ones who are at a lower level or who are in for the longer term. If they've earned it, they get what they deserve. What they choose to do with the experience is their business. Ultimately everyone is happier that way.

The part in bold was the point - people who stuck around earned the right to wear trim on the bottom of their uniforms; it was in addition to being promoted to I Dan.

 

[tellner]

So the black fringe isn't part of the black belt. It's an extra status thingie that means "black belt plus extra training". Makes sense.

It's a little harder with us. The closest we come to a uniform is the teacher's contention that Converse Hi Tops are the best cheap martial arts shoe in the world

 

[Kwan Jang]

I lnow that I am in the minority and going against the grain here, but our assn. has a rule that if you stop training, you resign your belt and I support it 110%. We look at black belt as an active, dynamic thing that is in large part, performance based. We look at it more like a military commisiion than a high school diploma. If you are actively training and progressing, you keep your rank and can advance. If you quit training for more than six months, you have resigned your status. If you quit training, your skills and fitness are no longer at that level. We will acknowledge that you WERE a black belt, but if you are not actively training, you're not one now. IMO, this eliminates a lot of the poor quality you see from the dan levels of other orgs. Sometimes I wish we had a provision for removing the belt from those who peaked when training for their black belt, then slacked off on their intensity for years afterward. OTOH, there is the argument for those whose skills atrophe due to age, injury illness, ect. and this obviously could lead to abuses.

If a former black belt student wishes to come back into training, they come in as a black belt candidate (red/black) and when they are back in shape and up to level on their technique, their instructor will test them when they are ready (no testing board, no fees, ect) and pick up from where they left off. If someone leaves our school(s) and continues to train, they keep their black belt status with us, though if they are not training in our dan curriculum, they can not test for a higher dan level. (Anybody else get the guys who come in and you haven't seen them in years, but want to test to the next dan since the time requirements are met? I have it a bit with the guys who go off to college.)

I have had one student that my instructors stripped of his rank on moral misconduct, but he confessed to raping a ten year old girl (his step-daughter). Some of you may see that as being "too controlling", but IF that's how anyone feels, then I feel that maybe your standards are a bit low for my tastes. It could be argued that he still has the physical skills we taught him and such and maybe those will come in handy in prison.

On a side note, Tellner mentioned how Gen.Choi was demoted from the founder of TKD for political reasons. The fact of the matter was that Choi was the one who used his own political position to strong arm the Kwans that were already established to unify into his umbrella org. that he named TKD. As far as I understand it, his "founder" position was only "demoted" to what his real status was as the co-founder of ODK and the military branch's system and as someone who used his tremendous political pull to help organize the system (by whatever means), once he had lost his high psoition and status with the Korean govenment.

 

[Shicomm]

Politics can do strange things...

 

[chinto]

OK , once a blackbelt you are a black belt....
now a black belt out of training because he stopped training is NOT the same thing as one who KEEPS TRAINING.

 

[stone_dragone]

In 1994, I started training as a "real" white belt (no previous training).

In 2000 I tested for Shodan and passed, and was promoted thusly.

Only on two occasions since then have I been tied around someone's waist. It was rather uncomfortable, being tied in a knot like that

 

[Sukerkin]

Neatly expressed, SD .

An awful lot of good points made here ladies and gentlemen, covering quite an area of ground too.

My own opinions on belt 'erosion' are somewhat given away by my response when people ask me my Kung Fu rank. I always tell then I used to be black sash but that was many years ago and, thanks to my accident, I haven't trained since. My mind still remembers an awful lot but my body simply cannot do it ... so now I use a sword instead :lol:.

I don't think that an organisation should take away someones rank just because they stopped training tho'. If they keep a register of active members then by all means enter someone there as 'lapsed' but don't wipe out their hard work as if it never happened.

An analogy would be my B.A. (Hons) in Economics. I earned that nearly twenty-five years ago and most of what I learned has leaked away through atrophy but the university has no right to remove my right to have those letters after my name.

I know that some feel that Martial Arts ranks should be kept 'qualified' or lost and I can see some justification for that. It's akin to the regular re-certification I have to take that allows me entry to sub-stations etc {as if I'm ever going to forget that 400kV is dangerous :lol:}.

But in the end, my feeling is that what is gained is gained and the rank should not be removed by the organisation other than for public demonstration of discommodation (as the Klingons would say ).

 

[Brian S]

If you earned your blackbelt you are always a blackbelt,however, you may not always be a martial artist.