Once a black belt...

[tellner]

I've seen it happen way too many times. Usually it's over the sort of stupid politics and immaturity that characterizes most martial arts organizations. It's particularly common when one guy is in charge of a style and has sole authority over credentials. Teacher and student have a falling out. The teacher de-ranks the student usually with denials that the student ever really learned much of anything.

It's particularly common in Filipino and Indonesian martial arts although I've seen it in various styles of Kenpo and Kajukenbo as well as Chinese MA and even Japanese koryu. These days some teaching certificates come with an expiration date. If you don't renew (and keep on the Head Guy's good side, and keep paying, and know what to kiss and when) you are no longer an instructor after a certain amount of time. If your teacher breaks with the organization you are given the choice of completely abandoning him or being cast into outer darkness.

So no. It's not uncommon. These days it seems like it's barely unusual.

 

[7starmarc]

I guess some of my response comes from my medical background, as well. You've got a M.D., great, congratulations. You still get to take further tests to get licensed to practice medicine. After you get that license, you still have to maintain a certain standard of practice and continuing education to maintain your license to practice in an ongoing fashion.

Will you ever be stripped of your M.D.? Probably never.

Will you ever be stopped from legally practicing medicine? You bet, if your skills and knowledge are not kept up to snuff.

Would you be eligible for further training (e.g. fellowships)? Probably, although you must demonstrate that your skills and knowledge provide a sufficient basis for further specialty training.

I stated that I did not believe that such a drop off meritted stripping rank or requirement of re-certification. I did state that if a black belt did not keep skills current, then they could rightfully be required to remediate prior to further rank progression.

In the case of the 80 year old 7th dan or the 40 year old 1st dan with emphysema, no, I would not expect them to be stripped of rank. Also, I would not expect them to be eligible from further ranks, unless they could meet the standards of the next rank.

 

[Phoenix44]

The only way I could see that , is if a Association decides to take away credit because a member committed a heinous act etc.... and wishes to break all ties.

Yes, this is the only way I've heard of this.

 

[girlbug2]

If I spend the next three weeks watching "Beavis and Butthead" and forget my name and address, I am still a high school graduate.

my .02

Too close to home for me..

 

[girlbug2]

Ditto... double ditto!

Me three! Tell us Drac. It is Not off-topic.

 

[exile]

I guess some of my response comes from my medical background, as well. You've got a M.D., great, congratulations. You still get to take further tests to get licensed to practice medicine. After you get that license, you still have to maintain a certain standard of practice and continuing education to maintain your license to practice in an ongoing fashion.

Will you ever be stripped of your M.D.? Probably never.

Will you ever be stopped from legally practicing medicine? You bet, if your skills and knowledge are not kept up to snuff.

Would you be eligible for further training (e.g. fellowships)? Probably, although you must demonstrate that your skills and knowledge provide a sufficient basis for further specialty training.

I stated that I did not believe that such a drop off meritted stripping rank or requirement of re-certification. I did state that if a black belt did not keep skills current, then they could rightfully be required to remediate prior to further rank progression.

In the case of the 80 year old 7th dan or the 40 year old 1st dan with emphysema, no, I would not expect them to be stripped of rank. Also, I would not expect them to be eligible from further ranks, unless they could meet the standards of the next rank.

Yes, those are the two sides of the issue. The difference between the MD and the Ph.D. in these cases is informative: the Ph.D. as a credential indicates that the field recognizes the qualifications of the awardee to conduct independent research which adds new knowledge to the field. The M.D. as a professional degree certifies the medical competence of the practitioner to treat patients for illness. A Ph.D. who gets the wrong answer will at worst mislead future researchers; an M.D. who gets the wrong answer can cost a patient his or her life.

I see belt rank as being more like the Ph.D. degree: it marks a certain level of research achievement. But an out-of-condition BB who has not kept up with the art should not be in the position of judging and promoting more junior practitioners; in the worst case, his or her high-water mark of a decade or more ago doesn't qualify him or her to deal with current clients and students past a certain level of advancement. The latter situation is where the comparison with the M.D., rather than the Ph.D., seems more apt.

My concern is the kind of situation that Tellner was referring to—the vulnerability of practitioners to nasty MA association or school-network politics. This is a place where pettiness often runs out of control, and MAists who've put in the sweat equity to earn their belts should be protected from the fallout from that sort of political viciousness.

 

[7starmarc]

My concern is the kind of situation that Tellner was referring to—the vulnerability of practitioners to nasty MA association or school-network politics. This is a place where pettiness often runs out of control, and MAists who've put in the sweat equity to earn their belts should be protected from the fallout from that sort of political viciousness.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Father Greek]

First of all I believe most of you are missing an important point. Becoming a Black Belt is not just the physical aspect but is also the mental. BB is a state of mind and being. It is how you tackle things in every day life and not just the Dojo. It is how you approach learning and teaching others. When you look at the number of students that begin MA and the number that last to BB and beyond,you must realize that it is something more than special. You can never take that away from someone. If someone has lost some of their skills through the years, that does not diminish their ability to judge others nor does it prevent them from teaching the skills that they once had. After 38 years in MA, I can no longer side kick above my head. Does this make me any less of a judge of others skills?

As for the story of being stripped of rank:
After 20 years with my instructor we had a personal falling out. About 9 years later after building a succesful program through a local community center, My old instructor sent a letter to the center saying that I had not obtained the rank that I claimed and that I was not even an Instructor. Luckily I had proof to the contrary and everything was Ok. EOS.

The thing is, that his pettiness wound up hurting him in the longrun. Instead of saying Look at what one of my former students has done, he chose to take the low road. One never knows what the true story of a situation is until he has heard all three sides.

To end this mess, each BB must be judged by only the people that He/She influences on a daily basis.

End of rant!

 

[Drac]

I'd like to hear that story...

Ditto... double ditto!

Me three! Tell us Drac. It is Not off-topic

He told it, see post #28...Its not as funny in the printed word, but the letter he got is funnier than you can imagine....If you knew his former instructor you would undestand..

 

[Deaf Smith]

The United States Marine Corps has the saying, "Once a Marine, always a Marine", but the Marine Corps is far more than just a black belt. It's the comradeship, teamwork, displine, and drive they have that pulls them together, far more than just getting ones black belt.

It's a much different thing. Us black belts didn't storm Iwo Jima. We didn't stand at the Chosin Reservoir and 100,000 Chineese trying to destory us, with Chesty as our leader (having been the same leader on Guadalcanal, Bloody Nose Ridge.) We didn't go to the Barbary coast to save Eden Pedecaris. Their traditions are miles above us. Paid in blood.

Now I'm proud to be a black belt, but 'once a black belt....' has no meaning to me.

Deaf

 

[Pacificshore]

I don't know of any actual stripping of one's BB, but have heard stories of BB's and the head instructor having a falling out, and getting "stripped" of their belt, but more in a way to say they are no longer part of their family tree, club, association, etc. This would also apply to those students that choose to follow the denounced BB out the door.

 

[Father Greek]

I feel sorry for you that you do not feel about your BB like you do about the Marines. If you think about it our traaditions go back much farther than the Corps. We as martial artists train others so they can defend themselves and their families. What is more noble than that other than defending your country. As MAists who among us has not trained hurt and in pain and as instructors who among us has not gone above and beyond to help another person get through some sort of struggle. I say stand tall and be proud of your accomplishments whether in the MARTIAL ARTS OR THE MILITARY ARTS.

 

[Fiendlover]

..Always a black belt?

On another thread I was shocked into realizing that in some systems, it may be possible for one to lose a black belt, as in, have it taken away. Say it ain't so! :O How can this happen? Only under special circumstances, I hope..?

In Kenpo, my understanding was that once somebody was a black belt it was considered a forever thing. Yes, a person could cease training and go rusty, get out of shape, etc. but that in itself would not strip them of their rank. OTOH if they wanted to pick up again and train for the next level they would have some catching up to do of course. But taken away? It seems like sacriledge.

Please educate me about this! I don't ever want to "lose it" from whatever style I study.

In my style you can lose your belt temporarily. I've never heard of a black belt's belt being taken away but usually it's an incentive to get kids to behave at home, with there parents, studies, other classmates, etc. I've never seen an adult's belt get taken away for what they do outside of the studio is there own buisness but if it's serious such as a black belt pounding unmercifully on a white belt then there is punishment such as a public apology and maybe a possible belt detainment. But like I said I only think it's for the kids.

 

[tellner]

I guess some of my response comes from my medical background, as well. You've got a M.D., great, congratulations. You still get to take further tests to get licensed to practice medicine. After you get that license, you still have to maintain a certain standard of practice and continuing education to maintain your license to practice in an ongoing fashion.

That's just it. Medicine is a profession with real standards involving a vital service. It's in the public eye and has objective standards for accreditation. The accreditation process for schools is standard as is board certification. Since human bodies and the technologies to diagnose and treat them are pretty much the same everywhere it's straightforward to do this. Also, real human lives are at stake all the time. Patient comfort is important, but getting certain real-world results is the real issue.

Martial arts is nothing of the sort. The MA world is largely built around brand loyalty and personal loyalty. It's the image and mystique as much as anything else. That leads to cults of personality and the elevation of personal issues to core concerns. Under such conditions it is almost inevitable that likes and dislikes and the power to grant or deny status will be important. That means, of course, the power to take them away.

The AMA can vote in new directors. A State Board of Regents can replace medical school faculty. Congress has gotten involved when the process had to be corrected. There are sources of correction and feedback and ways of keeping the profession on an even keel. This is not the case in a martial arts association. And I'm not sure how it could be unless we went the government certification route or most students suddenly had to make the training work in life or death situations all the time.

What is a black belt after all? It's a license to teach, but it's also about status, hopes and dreams. Combine the two, and personalities will rule as often as not.

Will you ever be stripped of your M.D.? Probably never.

Will you ever be stopped from legally practicing medicine? You bet, if your skills and knowledge are not kept up to snuff.

Would you be eligible for further training (e.g. fellowships)? Probably, although you must demonstrate that your skills and knowledge provide a sufficient basis for further specialty training.

Think of it this way. Suppose you got a degree fifty years ago. No matter how reprehensible you were later or if you never cracked a textbook again you would still be Joe Blow MSc. You might not be current on the state of the field, but there's no denying that you earned the degree and can put it on your resume. What goes on in the martial arts world is more like saying "You know that diploma we gave you? We don't like you anymore, so we're taking it back," or "You have to pay us a fee every year or it goes away."

I stated that I did not believe that such a drop off meritted stripping rank or requirement of re-certification. I did state that if a black belt did not keep skills current, then they could rightfully be required to remediate prior to further rank progression.

That's very reasonable. Some martial arts work that way. To become a Godan in Judo you have to pass certain tests and win a certain number of tournament bouts. If you can't, you have to wait until you can. In Kendo the hachidans really are good enough to beat pretty much everyone at the levels below them. A BJJ black belt has to be better than the brown belts and hold his own rolling with the black belts. After that the number of stripes really doesn't matter. That's part of the standard.

In the case of the 80 year old 7th dan or the 40 year old 1st dan with emphysema, no, I would not expect them to be stripped of rank. Also, I would not expect them to be eligible from further ranks, unless they could meet the standards of the next rank.

There's something else at work here. In most martial arts, after a certain point ranks are honorary. There's a certain degree of rank which comes from passing tests and being able to win fights with people. Past that they're understood to be for less concrete but theoretically important contributions to the style. The difference between eighth, ninth and tenth dan in Judo is a matter of perception and institutional regard. The Ancient and Venerable Fossils with the really fancy sashes are all at a certain minimum level. The extra flourishes and funny hats are just icing on the already-baked cake.

 

[Fiendlover]

I feel sorry for you that you do not feel about your BB like you do about the Marines. If you think about it our traaditions go back much farther than the Corps. We as martial artists train others so they can defend themselves and their families. What is more noble than that other than defending your country. As MAists who among us has not trained hurt and in pain and as instructors who among us has not gone above and beyond to help another person get through some sort of struggle. I say stand tall and be proud of your accomplishments whether in the MARTIAL ARTS OR THE MILITARY ARTS.

I agree

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

As for the story of being stripped of rank:
After 20 years with my instructor we had a personal falling out. About 9 years later after building a succesful program through a local community center, My old instructor sent a letter to the center saying that I had not obtained the rank that I claimed and that I was not even an Instructor. Luckily I had proof to the contrary and everything was Ok. EOS.

Hot Damn! I have that same story down to the letter!! The number of years and rank are different, but most everything else is the same!!!

 

[7starmarc]

There's something else at work here. In most martial arts, after a certain point ranks are honorary. There's a certain degree of rank which comes from passing tests and being able to win fights with people. Past that they're understood to be for less concrete but theoretically important contributions to the style. The difference between eighth, ninth and tenth dan in Judo is a matter of perception and institutional regard. The Ancient and Venerable Fossils with the really fancy sashes are all at a certain minimum level. The extra flourishes and funny hats are just icing on the already-baked cake.

But that's part of the point. If that 80 year old 7th Dan is able to meet the requirements of progression -- whether physical, spiritual, political or academic -- then, of course, he has earned the next rank. This would probably assume that he has remained engaged in the style as practitioner, teacher, promoter, author, etc. There is no conflict here. If that same person has "retired" and no longer engages in the above activities to advance the style and his mastery, that is a different story.

I realize the parallels to the medical world are not direct, but also realize that there are more politics and personality issues than you might like to think in the leadership of the medical communities.

 

[morph4me]

We've had people who have earned a particular rank, then leave the association, and then come back. We have them wear the belt of a lower rank and attend classes, as we evaluate their current level of skill they are allowed to wear the rank that corresponds to that level without further testing until they are wearing their previous rank. It usually doesn't take more than a fwe weeks or months, depending on how long they've been gone and what they remember.

 

[MJS]

..Always a black belt?

On another thread I was shocked into realizing that in some systems, it may be possible for one to lose a black belt, as in, have it taken away. Say it ain't so! :O How can this happen? Only under special circumstances, I hope..?

In Kenpo, my understanding was that once somebody was a black belt it was considered a forever thing. Yes, a person could cease training and go rusty, get out of shape, etc. but that in itself would not strip them of their rank. OTOH if they wanted to pick up again and train for the next level they would have some catching up to do of course. But taken away? It seems like sacriledge.

Please educate me about this! I don't ever want to "lose it" from whatever style I study.

Has this ever happened? Don't know, but its possible. Its possible if someone has a falling out with their teacher, does something that reflects badly against the school, etc., but I'd say at the most, they just would no longer be recognized as a BB at that particular school. I've earned my rank, so if I were to leave a school and they no longer wanted to acknowledge my rank, fine, but I'm still the rank I am.

 

[harlan]

When I first started, my teacher said, "It takes about 3 years before I trust someone. Coincidentally, that happens to be around the time most folks get to a certain point in their training.' Considering the whole stickiness of this kind of situation, that comment comes back to me with a whole new understanding.