Once a black belt...

[girlbug2]

..Always a black belt?

On another thread I was shocked into realizing that in some systems, it may be possible for one to lose a black belt, as in, have it taken away. Say it ain't so! :O How can this happen? Only under special circumstances, I hope..?

In Kenpo, my understanding was that once somebody was a black belt it was considered a forever thing. Yes, a person could cease training and go rusty, get out of shape, etc. but that in itself would not strip them of their rank. OTOH if they wanted to pick up again and train for the next level they would have some catching up to do of course. But taken away? It seems like sacriledge.

Please educate me about this! I don't ever want to "lose it" from whatever style I study.

 

[Drac]

I for one have NEVER heard of such a thing......

 

[exile]

I for one have NEVER heard of such a thing......

Me neither. A black belt indicates a certain level of achievement. Assuming it was you, and not your identical twin or some ringer or whatever, who tested and earned the belt, taking the belt away is like saying that some documented series of events in the past, that everyone concerned agrees really did happen, is now hereby judged to be cancelled. It really is that absurd.

The skills that earned 85 and 90 year old masters the 'hard physical test' dans that they earned in their thirties and forties are probably no longer there, for many of them. But no one takes away those dan ranks from these practitioners, even if they couldn't pass the same tests today that they did half a century earlier. Out of shape, out of practice, incapacitated or whatever, that belt is still yours, by right.

 

[7starmarc]

On one hand, no, I have never seen/heard of such a policy.

On the other, it kind of make sense. Let's face it, being a "black belt" should be more than a certificate and a piece of cloth around your waist. It should be a reflection of your (ongoing) dedication and discipline towards your art. If one has lapsed so far as to become very rusty and require remediation prior to resuming training at the appropriate level, then perhaps one really is not a "black belt" anymore.

Should this be policy? Should it require a re-earning of the black belt with all the ceremony that some styles put into it? Probably not. But if a student left for an extended period without good cause (i.e. injury) and returned at a significantly lower level than they left, I would agree that a return to lower level material would be warranted prior to progressing again. I'm not talking about a little rust, but a serious drop off in conditioning and technique/drills.

 

[Drac]

Let's face it, being a "black belt" should be more than a certificate and a piece of cloth around your waist. It should be a reflection of your (ongoing) dedication and discipline towards your art.

Bravo, Well said....

 

[exile]

Should this be policy? Should it require a re-earning of the black belt with all the ceremony that some styles put into it? Probably not. But if a student left for an extended period without good cause (i.e. injury) and returned at a significantly lower level than they left, I would agree that a return to lower level material would be warranted prior to progressing again. I'm not talking about a little rust, but a serious drop off in conditioning and technique/drills.

By this logic, we should be stripping sixth and seventh dans and higher of their black belts when they reach an age where they are no longer able to display that level of conditioning and technique. How about an advanced dan karateka or KMAist who's incapacitated by a wasting disease, by a heart condition, by emphysema or any manner of similar thing? That will result in as serious a dropping off in conditioning and technique as one could imagine, eh? Does anyone seriously think this is a good idea? Are we therefore going to require 'boards of inquiry' or some such nonsense to determine whether the 'drop off in conditioning and technique' is one due to factors beyond the practitioner's control (on the one hand), in which case they get to keep their belts, or due to slacking off (on the other), in which case their belts get taken away??

As you as you set up that kind of criterion for retention of a fairly earned belt, you're opening just this Pandora's box. Bad, bad idea, IMO.

 

[Drac]

OFF TOPIC POST exile, I must remind myself to get Father Greek to tell you the story of his former teacher who after 30 some years and a rank of 5 th Dan sent him a letter saying he was stripping him of his rank...Its a great story..END OFF TOPIC POST....

 

[CuongNhuka]

In Coung Nhu when you start you are a White Belt. If you're a Black Belt in another style, that is an acomplishment, but it holds no weight here. But, it is possible to lose your black belt. Sorta.
A few years ago there was a guy that was at his test (the second in charge of the style was his tester). He had to do a whole bunch of free sparring, and asked his tester to a match. His phrasing apparently upset the Master, who promptly took his Black Belt away. Well, he had basicly his test, but hadn't been given his new belt, but you get the idea.

So, if you're ever in a Cuong Nhu Black Belt Test, watch your phrasing if you want to sparr a Master.

Exile, I have a feeling that the rule 7Starmarc is talking about only aplies if you lose an unacceptable level of conditioning/technique.

 

[harlan]

I'm reminded of the saying, 'I brought you into this world...and I can take you out of it!'

Along with the idea of ranks, of earning some kind of recognition, and 'getting' that status symbol (and make no mistake...BB is STATUS in the popular mind) should also come a sense of obligation. Somebody brought you this far with a certain mental map of what the desired product should be. It's what I consider to be an unspoken social contract...in some places it's tangible and in other dojos barely recognized. But the baseline obligation should, to my way of thinking, be a committment to continue training in that style, and do so in a manner that is acceptable to the sensei you are working with.

The minute you quit that dojo, or stop training in that style, or comport yourself in such a way as to bring embarrassment to your teachers, then you basically put the belt aside. You still have the skills, and you can even tie the belt around you and swagger all over town saying, 'Look at me...I'm a BB.' But unless you still retain your teachers acknowledgement that you are a student...you've devalued the belt to a status symbol.

Whether or not one's teacher can be bothered to ask for it back.

 

[jks9199]

It's not possible to take the knowledge and skill away. It is possible to strip a person of the association's recognition or sanction of that rank. The belt itself is meaningless except to those who know the criteria of that instructor or system.

 

[harlan]

Personally, I don't think a belt has any inherent value or meaning, but as a symbol is has lots of meanings and there are different depending on who is involved; there is no denying the cult of mystique that has been perpetuated with the belt system.

 

[bowser666]

It's not possible to take the knowledge and skill away. It is possible to strip a person of the association's recognition or sanction of that rank. The belt itself is meaningless except to those who know the criteria of that instructor or system.

I disagree. The belt has meaning, to the person that earned it! It is ridiculous to take away some ones Black Belt. The only way I could see that , is if a Association decides to take away credit because a member committed a heinous act etc.... and wishes to break all ties. To simply take a belt away because they are out of shape, practice, whatever is stupid. It is in the students best interest to keep up on their studies if that is what they wish. If they leave and take a break , then come back it will be that much more time and difficulty to get back up to speed. You also need to mention that there could be extraneous circumstances as well. A person starts a family , doesnt have time or money to train anymore, or gets in a car accident and loses their legs. Does that mean take away their black belt because they can't perform their art anymore? Listen to that and then you will see how ridiculous taking belts away sounds.

P.S. I do understand what you mean by no meaning , if outside a different organization, or style etc... I was elaborating more on another point.

 

[terryl965]

Yes some orgs. hold the right for you to claim you are with them, but the thing is taken away a BB does not take away the years of training and knowledge that came from it. People may quite and get rusty but the knowlwdge remains with them. I beleive skill will deminish over time for everybody but that is based on each undividual body and how well it is maintained. But one mind never goes except for altimez :rofl:. I really feel sorry for people that believe people can take away knowledge.

 

[Kacey]

Have I heard of people having their rank stripped? Yes - and I'm not talking about starting a different style as a white belt (that's a different issue - if I started another style, I'd start as a white belt, 21 years of TKD notwithstanding), I know of students who have had their rank repudiated by the organization that granted it - usually for heinous crimes, such as child molestation - symbolic, but it meant the persons in question could no longer teach as a member of that organization, which was more meaningful. I also know of students who misplaced their belts and had to retest to get them back (an issue of respect for the giver rather the belt itself - a belt is a piece of cotton), and students who have seriously infringed upon the rules of the dojang who were demoted, for lesser offenses, generally as the culmination of other attempts to modify their behavior. I even know of one organization that included in its Policy and Procedure manual how to demote a VII Dan... a concept I have a hard time getting my mind around.

That being said, however - a belt is a symbol, it is not the rank itself, nor is it the knowledge and experience necessary to attain the rank. You cannot reach into someone's head and magically remove the knowledge and experience the person has earned, no matter your opinion of them as a person or the person's actions. Black belts who have been out of training for some time (reason generally not relevant - life happens) should, IMHO, retain their rank, but it will generally take them longer than other students of similar physical ability and experience to regain what they've lost, should they ever wish to test again. Depending on the time lapse and the rank, the same can hold true for color belts. In either case, they must come back up to the standard they were at before leaving (or as close as is physically possible) before beginning to work on new material.

I've had students who were color belts with long lapses; I had one who was a 1st gup high red belt when life forced him to quit, who, when offered a choice, chose to come back as a 10th gup white belt and work his way back up; I had another who had been a 2nd gup red belt who, when offered a choice, chose to come back as a 2nd gup red belt... guess which one made it to black belt? The first one.... although, in all fairness, it wasn't the second one's fault; he was deployed to Iraq, and when he (thankfully) came home, he was assigned to a different location and couldn't make it to class.

 

[Flying Crane]

OFF TOPIC POST exile, I must remind myself to get Father Greek to tell you the story of his former teacher who after 30 some years and a rank of 5 th Dan sent him a letter saying he was stripping him of his rank...Its a great story..END OFF TOPIC POST....

I'd like to hear that story...

 

[exile]

I'd like to hear that story...

Ditto... double ditto!

 

[Flying Crane]

When I was in junior high and high school in the mid 1980s I began training in Tracy kenpo and earned my shodan.

As the years went by, I driften away from kenpo and into other arts like capoeira and kung fu.

A couple years ago I decided to reconnect with my roots, and I found a Tracy kenpo teacher in the area where I now live. I tried to put on a white belt and start over, but he wouldn't allow it. He felt that once earned, it is forever.

However, I did start over with him in that I have been relearning everything from the ground up. I will also go thru the shodan test with a couple other students, when the time comes. Only then will he consider me eligible to begin training the material for rank beyond shodan. But in the mean time, he has recognized my rank that I earned about 20 years ago.

I do believe you can be ejected from an organization, and they would no longer recognize you as a member and such. But this is not taking away your rank. In fact, you could still truthfully state that you earned your rank while training under X instructor, as long as you are also truthful about the fact that you are no longer a member of that organization nor a student of X instructor, and they do not endorse you.

 

[exile]

Black belts who have been out of training for some time (reason generally not relevant - life happens) should, IMHO, retain their rank, but it will generally take them longer than other students of similar physical ability and experience to regain what they've lost, should they ever wish to test again. Depending on the time lapse and the rank, the same can hold true for color belts. In either case, they must come back up to the standard they were at before leaving (or as close as is physically possible) before beginning to work on new material.

I've had students who were color belts with long lapses; I had one who was a 1st gup high red belt when life forced him to quit, who, when offered a choice, chose to come back as a 10th gup white belt and work his way back up; I had another who had been a 2nd gup red belt who, when offered a choice, chose to come back as a 2nd gup red belt... guess which one made it to black belt? The first one.... although, in all fairness, it wasn't the second one's fault; he was deployed to Iraq, and when he (thankfully) came home, he was assigned to a different location and couldn't make it to class.

That's how we do it in my school, and in every other school I know.

It's not just rank within the school either. My instructor will let you wear your belt—black or color—whatever you've earned—if you're training with us. But to advance to the next round, you have to come up to the standard he expects his own students to be at, who've come up via the normal progression, before they test for the next one. His idea is, you earned it, you keep it, but the next one you earn has to satisfy this school's skill and knowledge requirements... so you better get up to speed, or back up to speed, if you want to test with us. This approach has always struck me as sound and fair, and most of the other people I know in the MAs work under something like the same system, with minor variations.

It's similar to an academic degree. Suppose you got a Ph.D. in physics, taught univesity for thirty years, and then retired... not an uncommon scenario, eh? :wink1: You stop going to conferences so much, maybe; you take more pleasure from the achievements of your students, grand-students and so on, than from your own—you've made your mark, you've handed the torch on to the future, in its young creative prime; but you still are a member of your field, honored by your peers for the knowledge you added and the results you obtained, and you still follow the avant-garde as it solves, or tries to solve, the problems your generation left open.

We're gonna say that this guy's Ph.D. should be taken away from him? Because he's falling increasingly far from the bleeding edge of the field?

I didn't think so... and I think it's no different with any BB, or any belt at all really, that you sweated to earn.

 

[cdunn]

Rank in the martial arts is, unfortunately, an overloaded concept. The rankings get used to mark:

Competitive ability;
Technical execution ability;
Technical comprehension;
Teaching authority;
Time and effort invested;

And so on and so forth, but there is another, extremely, extremely important thing that granting the rank shows: Trust in the person bearing the rank. A black belt is held up as a visible and desirable example of what the system is trying to teach a person, and what learning those teachings do to you. And, in some fashion, those that are learning are trying to become a reflection of those that are teaching, and a reflection of those that have been taught. The organization that grants and supports a dan rank is doing so believes that the person recieving the rank displays the attributes it desires to see in a high ranked individual. And a dan rank is no more, nor no less, than the declaration that the individual recieving it is a reflection what the organization desires to create in a person.

When you walk into a school, seeking out a person to teach you, you are placing your trust in them to achieve your goals, and if your goal is self defense, you may well be trusting this person with your very life. His or her rank, amoung all the other things, is a signal to you, the new student, that someone else trusts in him too. Even that half-blind, octagenarian 8th dan still has the trust of his organization - His role has changed as he got older, but the trust is there.

Can you take away a person's skills, and what he's learned? No. Can a person violate the trust that his ranking is based upon, and thereby, have his rank stripped from him? Absolutely. Does each organization need to have its own guidelines as to what the parameters of that trust are? Absolutely. Your rank is for your organization. Your skills are for you.

 

[stone_dragone]

The presentation of a belt/rank certificate/etc to a student from an instructor is a milestone marking the particular achievement of a specific standard at a certain point in time, in the same manner as a high school diploma.

Although I can no longer remember how to do a five-step proof in planar geometry, remember Ceasar's eulogy or even apply the circle of fifths to establish a key signature for a piece of sheet music, I am still a high school graduate.

If I spend the next three weeks watching "Beavis and Butthead" and forget my name and address, I am still a high school graduate.

If I get fat, lazy, and stop practicing I'll still be a black belt. I'd be a black belt who got his *** kicked by a white belt, but I'll still be a black belt...whatever that's worth.

my .02