OMG a balanced video on MMA vs TMA?!?!?!?!?!

[drop bear]

I'd argue there's still that distinction in grappling. If someone has never grappled with resistance, they'll never pull it off against someone who is actually resisting, unless they get lucky (or the other guy is really bad).

Grappling is almost always done with resistance. Which is jow's distinction there.

 

[drop bear]

Show me 1 Traditional Martial Art school that trains against the movements and techniques of boxing. Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Wing Chun, take your pick and not Sanda. Show me one Karate school that trains to fight against boxing type movements and techniques of boxing. The closest I've seen to this would be. Master Wong

Check out the schools in your area and see if you can find a TMA that trains against boxing movements and techniques.

If your tma is part of a MMA club and you turn up to sparring like you should. You fight actual boxers kick boxers and grapplers.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Grappling is almost always done with resistance. Which is jow's distinction there.

Oddly, not necessarily. In TMA, grappling is often learned first from a fairly static position. I've seen schools that added dynamic movement, but failed to add resistance. It's an intermediate point that has value, but doesn't get all the way to learning to grapple against someone who's actually trying to stop you from your goal.

 

[drop bear]

we are talking about kung fu, v a fighter that moves like a boxer,ie doesnt stand still in a horse stance, kick boxer are boxer who kick and so move like a boxer by defintion.

your point was if a person is fast moving a kung fu guy can't hit him. The answer is plainly obvious, move your self

No. They don't move randomly. It is not even necessarily a speed game. There are places you can go inside an exchange that will make you more or less likely to be hit.

 

[jobo]

No. They don't move randomly. It is not even necessarily a speed game. There are places you can go inside an exchange that will make you more or less likely to be hit.

ot wasn't me, rather our kung fu man that said kung fu cant cope with a fast and mobile attacker. I think it can, but only if you are not stood in a stupid horse stance whilst your oppoinent attacks and retreats at will.

 

[drop bear]

ot wasn't me, rather our kung fu man that said kung fu cant cope with a fast and mobile attacker. I think it can, but only if you are not stood in a stupid horse stance whilst your oppoinent attacks and retreats at will.

MMA is pretty horse stancey.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If your tma is part of a MMA club and you turn up to sparring like you should. You fight actual boxers kick boxers and grapplers.

I could only dream of something like that. To have every sparring day to be Jow Ga vs. (insert style) instead of Jow Ga vs Jow Ga which is the norm. Maybe later this year I can work something out with an MMA gym.

rather our kung fu man that said kung fu cant cope with a fast and mobile attacker.

I've never said that. You can take a look at Jow Ga forms and know right off the back that I would never say that. What I will say is that most TMA student's don't train against mobility. That's why when someone jumps on them with a bunch of punches they freeze and extend their arms like Frankenstein's monster, instead of move. We have all seen evidence of this when a TMA practitioner meets up with someone who moves a lot and at different heights. Not all TMAs schools are like that, but there are a lot that are.

Here's an example.
Both of these guys are TMA practitioners, but only one trains to deal with mobility. The other one just freezes because he's not used to dealing with that type of movement. We have all seen similar freezing from TMA practitioners who fight against MMA, BJJ, or any other system that uses more movement than what is found or trained against in TMA schools.

 

[JowGaWolf]

if you want to see you need to come on Wednesday, other that yoil have to take my word

but why are you not training to fight fast and mobile people

I can only train against the skills that people in my school have. They would need to be faster and more mobile than me. There is one guy that's faster and more mobile than me, but he works off a pattern so once I know how he likes to move, then it neutralizes his ability to take advantage of being fast and mobile. The only way I can train against fast and mobile to spar against someone outside of the school. Maybe this year the school will get lucky and we'll have some fast and very mobile people to join.

 

[Ironbear24]

That's just it. The "Traditional Method" is all about combat. Everything from the conditioning exercises to the strength building exercises, and the weapons, say as much. It screams combat. It think the problem is that China cracked down on many schools who taught martial arts as it truly should be and in their place changed the perception of martial arts as being all about being honorable and not about fighting. In my eyes, the training isn't about fighting, but the use of it in a Self-Defense aspect is.

It's like shooting a gun. People shoot at targets, it's not about killing, it's about hitting the target. But that changes when the target becomes an animal or a violent attacker in the context of self-defense.

What ruined Chinese martial arts was the communist party in China. The government pretty much banned martial arts and only permitted performance arts to be taught. The ban as far as I know was barely lifted only in the 80's or something.

So you had all that time of Martial Arts being blacklisted and masters vanishing.

 

[Ironbear24]

I could only dream of something like that. To have every sparring day to be Jow Ga vs. (insert style) instead of Jow Ga vs Jow Ga which is the norm. Maybe later this year I can work something out with an MMA gym.

I've never said that. You can take a look at Jow Ga forms and know right off the back that I would never say that. What I will say is that most TMA student's don't train against mobility. That's why when someone jumps on them with a bunch of punches they freeze and extend their arms like Frankenstein's monster, instead of move. We have all seen evidence of this when a TMA practitioner meets up with someone who moves a lot and at different heights. Not all TMAs schools are like that, but there are a lot that are.

Here's an example.
Both of these guys are TMA practitioners, but only one trains to deal with mobility. The other one just freezes because he's not used to dealing with that type of movement. We have all seen similar freezing from TMA practitioners who fight against MMA, BJJ, or any other system that uses more movement than what is found or trained against in TMA schools.

Damn he makes it look easy.

 

[jobo]

I can only train against the skills that people in my school have. They would need to be faster and more mobile than me. There is one guy that's faster and more mobile than me, but he works off a pattern so once I know how he likes to move, then it neutralizes his ability to take advantage of being fast and mobile. The only way I can train against fast and mobile to spar against someone outside of the school. Maybe this year the school will get lucky and we'll have some fast and very mobile people to join.

yes but they can train against your mobility.

if people stood on horse stance only fight people stood in horse stance its hardly surprising that a mobile attacker gives difficulty

my point is that this static fighting style isn't traditional. It's something that has crept in. When we do various Chinese styles there is lots of movement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

my point is that this static fighting style isn't traditional. It's something that has crept in. When we do various Chinese styles there is lots of movement.

In striking art, there is a training that you

- stay in your fighting stance. No matter how hard that your opponent's attack may be, you are not suppose to move your feet. This can test your blocking skill to the extreme.

- keep moving around. No matter how fast that your opponent's attack may be, you are not suppose to let him to touch any part of your body. This can test your dodging skill to the extreme.

I like both training very much.

 

[drop bear]

I could only dream of something like that. To have every sparring day to be Jow Ga vs. (insert style) instead of Jow Ga vs Jow Ga which is the norm. Maybe later this year I can work something out with an MMA gym.

MMA gyms always need sparring partners. You need the right sort of gym. You don't want to get bashed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

MMA gyms always need sparring partners. You need the right sort of gym. You don't want to get bashed.

Yeah. I'm not looking to be bashed at least when I'm trying to learn kung fu techniques, which is a high mistake process.

 

[drop bear]

Show me 1 Traditional Martial Art school that trains against the movements and techniques of boxing. Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Wing Chun, take your pick and not Sanda. Show me one Karate school that trains to fight against boxing type movements and techniques of boxing. The closest I've seen to this would be. Master Wong

Check out the schools in your area and see if you can find a TMA that trains against boxing movements and techniques.

What happens if you bob and weave a bit too predictably in a fight that allows leg attacks.

WATCH: Dan Hooker knocks out Ross Pearson with devastating knee

 

[Juany118]

so is charging a modern attack, did people not charge in the days when tmas were new?

Go to YouTube and enter "Krav Maga bursting". It's not charging as one would expect. Typically when one charges you are expecting a grapple/takedown. Bursting is about dealing with an attack by striking. Basically you surge to the opponent, thrusting one arm at the limb attacking, the other one raised to strike the opponents core/center. The power of the strike and block/deflection isn't from punching but from the legs. The limbs are essentially rams being powered by your legs in a forward "burst".

In my experience that is uncommon in other MA. Now there are ways to counter it BUT if you are training exclusively in a single martial art and don't "Branch out" when someone "bursts you" you are most likely going to react as if a takedown is imminent, right before one forearm is deflecting your strike and you are feeling a strike to the abdomen or sternum at the same instant.

 

[jobo]

Go to YouTube and enter "Krav Maga bursting". It's not charging as one would expect. Typically when one charges you are expecting a grapple/takedown. Bursting is about dealing with an attack by striking. Basically you surge to the opponent, thrusting one arm at the limb attacking, the other one raised to strike the opponents core/center. The power of the strike and block/deflection isn't from punching but from the legs. The limbs are essentially rams being powered by your legs in a forward "burst".

In my experience that is uncommon in other MA. Now there are ways to counter it BUT if you are training exclusively in a single martial art and don't "Branch out" when someone "bursts you" you are most likely going to react as if a takedown is imminent, right before one forearm is deflecting your strike and you are feeling a strike to the abdomen or sternum at the same instant.

the discussion was,,, is this bursting a new techneque, km is very nearly as old a karate, so the answer would seem to be no its not new

 

[Juany118]

the discussion was,,, is this bursting a new techneque, km is very nearly as old a karate, so the answer would seem to be no its not new

Apologies, this will be a little long because I want to try and make a number of points.

First...What? KM as old as karate?!?!?!?! KM basically started being developed in the 1930's by Lichtenfeld as a synergy of western boxing, wrestling and street fighting. It was basically refined into a something resembling what we call KM in the 50's and 60's when he was the chief Instructor for the IDF (as an example he didn't formally include Judo elements until the 1960s.) Then in the 1970's his chief student, forget the guys name, included Aikido elements. In the 80's they introduced Muay Thai and then BJJ techniques. Now I do not know from whence the idea of bursting came from, but it, in my experience is fairly unique. So basically the KM we know today is as old as the 1980's.

If you look at Okinawan Karate we are talking centuries old. "Japanese" Karate early 1900's. Now Kyokushin is roughly from the infant KM period (1950's) but Kyokushin is simply a "next step" in a far older art, unlike KM that synergizes from a host of source; arts you would not think are compatible (Muay Thai and Aikido), and instinctive bio-mechanics (bursting).

You also seem to make an error in think "new" means "specific technique invented in 2017." New here is about context not a calendar.
___________________________________________________________________________

Next, remember TMA's tend to focus on trained techniques, that take a fair amount of time to simply become competent in a real fight let alone master. The whole point of KM is that it is supposed to make a competent fighter when dealing with the time constraints of Military/Security Forces training. So the combination of seemly disparate, but basic, techniques and some "techniques" that are based on instinctive biomechanics does indeed make it "new" context wise. All the ideas in the art existed before but lets look at metals as an analogy. We had copper and tin, someone came along and combined them and we had Bronze. It was "new" but based on a combination of things we already knew about.

None of the above is to say that TMA's are bad. The problem is complicated because you seem

1. All MA's (even MMA, KM and other modern styles that try to combine the best of all) technique wise have inherent strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes it's inherent in the art, sometimes in the practitioner, sometimes a combo of all

2. TMAs as they are trained all too often have an additional weakness. The train WC vs WC, Jow Ga vs Jow Ga, BJJ vs BJJ, Muay Thai vs Muay Thai etc. This creates an additional inherent weakness.

-What does the WC guy do if the BJJ guy gets him on the ground?
-What does the BJJ guy do if the Jow Ga guy doesn't let him grapple?
-What does the Muay Thai guy do if the WC guy gets in close so kicks don't work and traps so he can't clinch and thus can't knee effectively?
-What does the Jow Ga guy do if the Muay Thai guy gets him in the clinch and the knees start flying?

Now some of us are lucky and go to a school where multiple arts are trained and thus can "test" ourselves against them. Some of us seek it out on our own @JowGaWolf did it with his brother with Muay Thai, I spar with my TKD brother-in-law and a co-worker who is a BJJ guy. However I have never experienced being in a Muay Thai clinch and getting kneed the way @JowGaWolf has. It would be new to me. I would have to learn if WC, Kali or Aikido has the better solution. I suspect "giving in" and going to the ground and using Kali or Aikido would be the best option but I don't know and it would be a "new" learning experience. Luckily, at best, I tend to deal with talented "street fighters" and so after 19 years of dealing with that, not much new comes along, but if it did, all my training and experience would have to adapt quickly.

 

[jobo]

Apologies, this will be a little long because I want to try and make a number of points.

First...What? KM as old as karate?!?!?!?! KM basically started being developed in the 1930's by Lichtenfeld as a synergy of western boxing, wrestling and street fighting. It was basically refined into a something resembling what we call KM in the 50's and 60's when he was the chief Instructor for the IDF (as an example he didn't formally include Judo elements until the 1960s.) Then in the 1970's his chief student, forget the guys name, included Aikido elements. In the 80's they introduced Muay Thai and then BJJ techniques. Now I do not know from whence the idea of bursting came from, but it, in my experience is fairly unique. So basically the KM we know today is as old as the 1980's.

If you look at Okinawan Karate we are talking centuries old. "Japanese" Karate early 1900's. Now Kyokushin is roughly from the infant KM period (1950's) but Kyokushin is simply a "next step" in a far older art, unlike KM that synergizes from a host of source; arts you would not think are compatible (Muay Thai and Aikido), and instinctive bio-mechanics (bursting).

You also seem to make an error in think "new" means "specific technique invented in 2017." New here is about context not a calendar.
___________________________________________________________________________

Next, remember TMA's tend to focus on trained techniques, that take a fair amount of time to simply become competent in a real fight let alone master. The whole point of KM is that it is supposed to make a competent fighter when dealing with the time constraints of Military/Security Forces training. So the combination of seemly disparate, but basic, techniques and some "techniques" that are based on instinctive biomechanics does indeed make it "new" context wise. All the ideas in the art existed before but lets look at metals as an analogy. We had copper and tin, someone came along and combined them and we had Bronze. It was "new" but based on a combination of things we already knew about.

None of the above is to say that TMA's are bad. The problem is complicated because you seem

1. All MA's (even MMA, KM and other modern styles that try to combine the best of all) technique wise have inherent strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes it's inherent in the art, sometimes in the practitioner, sometimes a combo of all

2. TMAs as they are trained all too often have an additional weakness. The train WC vs WC, Jow Ga vs Jow Ga, BJJ vs BJJ, Muay Thai vs Muay Thai etc. This creates an additional inherent weakness.

-What does the WC guy do if the BJJ guy gets him on the ground?
-What does the BJJ guy do if the Jow Ga guy doesn't let him grapple?
-What does the Muay Thai guy do if the WC guy gets in close so kicks don't work and traps so he can't clinch and thus can't knee effectively?
-What does the Jow Ga guy do if the Muay Thai guy gets him in the clinch and the knees start flying?

Now some of us are lucky and go to a school where multiple arts are trained and thus can "test" ourselves against them. Some of us seek it out on our own @JowGaWolf did it with his brother with Muay Thai, I spar with my TKD brother-in-law and a co-worker who is a BJJ guy. However I have never experienced being in a Muay Thai clinch and getting kneed the way @JowGaWolf has. It would be new to me. I would have to learn if WC, Kali or Aikido has the better solution. I suspect "giving in" and going to the ground and using Kali or Aikido would be the best option but I don't know and it would be a "new" learning experience. Luckily, at best, I tend to deal with talented "street fighters" and so after 19 years of dealing with that, not much new comes along, but if it did, all my training and experience would have to adapt quickly.

it is indeed a very long post, but unfortunately its a very long post based on a false premise.
karate was developed from older arts in the 1900s. KM was developed from older arts in 1900s. Therefore they are both twentieth century. If you are going to claim karate is much older based on the,arts it was developed from,then you have to do the same for KM. you cant just make up a qualification and only apply to one of the arts. Western boxing wrestling and street fighting can be traced back many centuries. Quite possibly longer, but certainly as long a cma

 

[lklawson]

Basically you surge to the opponent, thrusting one arm at the limb attacking, the other one raised to strike the opponents core/center. The power of the strike and block/deflection isn't from punching but from the legs. The limbs are essentially rams being powered by your legs in a forward "burst".

So driving a linear punch by strongly stepping forward and using the weight of your body to "fall linearly" into the strike?

If that's it, then it's pretty common. It was the standard linear punch, called the Lead Off, Left Lead, or, when from rear, Right Straight or Rear Straight. I can document it in bare knuckle boxing going back to the early 19th Century or late 18th, but Jack Dempsey described it best in his book Championship Fighting.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk