OMG a balanced video on MMA vs TMA?!?!?!?!?!

[lklawson]

they had battles in towns in the old days, in day light,

Sometimes, yes.

and only the gentry had amour .

Not if they could help it. Having armor in a battle is always an advantage and every soldier would typically try their best to get ahold of it. Usually it was part of the standard kit. If the soldier wasn't issued and couldn't afford metal armor, they'd use whatever the next best alternative would be. Sometimes that is what's called "quilted" armor and sometimes it might be cuir bouilli.

Are you suggesting that I believe there are never exceptions? Of course there are. Exceptions prove the rule. "Battle field" martial arts evolve to match the norm, not the exception.

That said, the exceptions are usually much more interesting than the rule.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jobo]

In war you'll need to have techniques and weapons that work against multiple attackers and armor. In civilian context, you are more likely to be fighting 1 vs 1. It makes a big difference in the mindset and strategy that a person will train with. In war they would want to kill as quickly as possible. You don't want to be in a situation where you are wrestling on the ground for 3 minutes trying to put someone in an arm bar. Factor in the weight of armor and you'll want to make sure that killing is as efficient as possible.

people keep banging on about armor, peasants didn't have armor . Armor was mind blowing expensive, peasant's turn up in their working clothes with some rice flails or other farm impliment

 

[lklawson]

people keep banging on about armor, peasants didn't have armor . Armor was mind blowing expensive, peasant's turn up in their working clothes with some rice flails or other farm impliment

Not all armor is metal. Sheesh, if you weren't issued armor you got the best that you could afford.

Heck, pacific islanders, with no access to metal, made armor out of coconut fiber.

A lot of times Light Cavalry didn't wear much (or any) armor either. Are you suggesting that a Cav charge is civilian self defense?

Look, you know that military based "battle field" martial arts need to be different because the needs are different from civilian "self defense" martial arts.

 

[jobo]

Not all armor is metal. Sheesh, if you weren't issued armor you got the best that you could afford.

Heck, pacific islanders, with no access to metal, made armor out of coconut fiber.

A lot of times Light Cavalry didn't wear much (or any) armor either. Are you suggesting that a Cav charge is civilian self defense?

Look, you know that military based "battle field" martial arts need to be different because the needs are different from civilian "self defense" martial arts.

that doesn't really fit any reasonable defintion of armour. Anyway how many coconuts are there s china?

turning up in thick clothing is a bit pointless, if the others have swards'. And they argument was they couldn't move properly because of the weight. That wouldn't apply to wearing coconut matting, though I'm pretty sure the itching wouldn't help

its not me that said amour was the difference between civil and army, that was someone else

 

[jobo]

Sometimes, yes.

Not if they could help it. Having armor in a battle is always an advantage and every soldier would typically try their best to get ahold of it. Usually it was part of the standard kit. If the soldier wasn't issued and couldn't afford metal armor, they'd use whatever the next best alternative would be. Sometimes that is what's called "quilted" armor and sometimes it might be cuir bouilli.

Are you suggesting that I believe there are never exceptions? Of course there are. Exceptions prove the rule. "Battle field" martial arts evolve to match the norm, not the exception.

That said, the exceptions are usually much more interesting than the rule.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

the norm was lots of people who couldn't afford armour or a sward, running around hitting each other with farm impliments

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well that entirely depends on which side of history you think is correct. If you believe that Chinese Martial Arts originated with the Shaolin monks, then their primary function was as a form of exercise and self-defence for the monks to allow them to meditate for long periods of time. If however you believe that Chinese Martial Arts originated from the Yellow Emperor then they were primarily used on the battlefield.

That said, regardless of how and why Chinese Martial Arts originated, along the way various leaders of China have sought to stop the fighting aspect of Chinese Martial Arts, either by stopping people from practicing them entirely, or by stipulating that they can only be done for artistic and cultural purposes, NOT for fighting. With such barriers in place, it's no wonder that Chinese Martial Arts aren't trained for fighting anymore.

The most recent example of the Chinese government repressing Martial Arts is their response to the Tai Chi vs MMA fight. They quickly try to claim the definition and the purpose of Martial Arts. Ironically while other TMA martial artist were more than eager to step up.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

they had battles in towns in the old days, in day light, and only the gentry had amour .

And it was typically only the gentry who fought duels using weapons. Your average peasant couldn't afford a sword of their own and would only be given one when they were fighting in the army.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

The most recent example of the Chinese government repressing Martial Arts is their response to the Tai Chi vs MMA fight. They quickly try to claim the definition and the purpose of Martial Arts. Ironically while other TMA martial artist were more than eager to step up.

Yes, although you can't blame them too much, since the Shaolin temple provides a large portion of the tourist trade in China and as such they want to preserve the mysticism associated with the Shaolin Monks as these legendary fighters and masters of Kung Fu, despite none of them actually fighting....

 

[DanT]

With such barriers in place, it's no wonder that Chinese Martial Arts aren't trained for fighting anymore.

I agree with everything except for this. There are still a few places that train it for combat. But they are rare.

 

[lklawson]

that doesn't really fit any reasonable defintion of armour.

Yes, actually, it does.

Anyway how many coconuts are there s china?

You're missing the point.

turning up in thick clothing is a bit pointless, if the others have swards'. And they argument was they couldn't move properly because of the weight. That wouldn't apply to wearing coconut matting, though I'm pretty sure the itching wouldn't help

You are still missing the point.

its not me that said amour was the difference between civil and army, that was someone else

That was me.

 

[lklawson]

the norm was lots of people who couldn't afford armour or a sward, running around hitting each other with farm impliments

Not in organized militarizes past the frigg'n stone age. Armor was the norm, even if it was "just" a shield.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information about how armies were equipped but it's just not accurate.

 

[lklawson]

And it was typically only the gentry who fought duels using weapons. Your average peasant couldn't afford a sword of their own and would only be given one when they were fighting in the army.

Spears and pole-arms were cheaper. Tend to work better in formation combat too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JowGaWolf]

they had battles in towns in the old days, in day light, and only the gentry had amour .

Everyone had armor. The quality of the armor is what varied. Why would you go to war without some type of armor regardless of how small the piece of am or is. Amor could be as simple as an extra layer of clothing covering vital areas like the wrists. From a military point of view, it's in your best interest to have a well equipped army. Not everyone will have the best, but everyone will something. There are historical records of soldiers creating their own armor; after all why wouldn't do what you could to increase your chances of survival? This is no different what modern soldiers have done.

 

[JowGaWolf]

people keep banging on about armor, peasants didn't have armor . Armor was mind blowing expensive, peasant's turn up in their working clothes with some rice flails or other farm impliment

The best armor was expensive. Front line infantry armor couldn't afford to be expensive. The goal was to provide as much armor as possible. After the battle is over the winner would take what they could off the dead to resupply the army.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Spears and pole-arms were cheaper. Tend to work better in formation combat too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Indeed, especially against cavalry.

that doesn't really fit any reasonable defintion of armour. Anyway how many coconuts are there s china?

turning up in thick clothing is a bit pointless, if the others have swards'. And they argument was they couldn't move properly because of the weight. That wouldn't apply to wearing coconut matting, though I'm pretty sure the itching wouldn't help

its not me that said amour was the difference between civil and army, that was someone else

Then what is your definition of "armour"? Does armour have to be metal for it to be armour?

 

[jobo]

Indeed, especially against cavalry.



Then what is your definition of "armour"? Does armour have to be metal for it to be armour?

no, but it has by defintion to be able to protect you from what your likely to be hit with. So putting on a thick coat may be said to be amour if someone is throwing tennis ball at you. But not amour if your expecting someone to attack you with a pitch fork or even a pointy stick, wrapping yourself in coconut matting was only effective u till technology came up with making pointy sticks, about two million years ago,

 

[JowGaWolf]

So putting on a thick coat may be said to be amour if someone is throwing tennis ball at you.

To put it into context. Other materials were uses as well such as bone, leather, and wood. Anything that I can put in between my enemy's blade and my skin is going to be looked at as an option as long as it wasn't detrimental to my fighting ability. While a "thick coat" may not protect against a stab, it would still offer some protection against a slice or a blunt impact, and some arrows, especially if the cloth was woven. Even if it doesn't stop the arrow from piercing your flesh, it will prevent it from being a deep flesh wound. Ancient Armor made from paper.

Many years ago as a teenager, I was swinging on a rope next to a fence that looked like this. I had a thick coat one that had a pull up collar. I had the coat on because it the rope, which was thin, was cutting me. On one swing the rope snapped and the back of my neck landed on the the fence. Had I not had the coat with the high collar on then fence would have ripped the back of my neck and probably would have either killed me. My neck literally landed on the fence and I slid off the fence and landed on my feet. I didn't realize how blessed I was until I got in to the house. The fence put a 6 inch rip into the collar and ripped through all of the fabric except the wool on the inside. I've ripped my hand open as a kid before so I know from experience how fences like this will tear through flesh. Blades are like that when it comes to slashing. I'm better off with a thick piece of fabric between me and my skin. Don't think so. Take a towel, fold it twice and wrap it around a wood post. Then take a knife and try to slash the wood through the towel.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, although you can't blame them too much, since the Shaolin temple provides a large portion of the tourist trade in China and as such they want to preserve the mysticism associated with the Shaolin Monks as these legendary fighters and masters of Kung Fu, despite none of them actually fighting....

Well yes I can. I can blame them a whole lot.

 

[jobo]

To put it into context. Other materials were uses as well such as bone, leather, and wood. Anything that I can put in between my enemy's blade and my skin is going to be looked at as an option as long as it wasn't detrimental to my fighting ability. While a "thick coat" may not protect against a stab, it would still offer some protection against a slice or a blunt impact, and some arrows, especially if the cloth was woven. Even if it doesn't stop the arrow from piercing your flesh, it will prevent it from being a deep flesh wound. Ancient Armor made from paper.

Many years ago as a teenager, I was swinging on a rope next to a fence that looked like this. I had a thick coat one that had a pull up collar. I had the coat on because it the rope, which was thin, was cutting me. On one swing the rope snapped and the back of my neck landed on the the fence. Had I not had the coat with the high collar on then fence would have ripped the back of my neck and probably would have either killed me. My neck literally landed on the fence and I slid off the fence and landed on my feet. I didn't realize how blessed I was until I got in to the house. The fence put a 6 inch rip into the collar and ripped through all of the fabric except the wool on the inside. I've ripped my hand open as a kid before so I know from experience how fences like this will tear through flesh. Blades are like that when it comes to slashing. I'm better off with a thick piece of fabric between me and my skin. Don't think so. Take a towel, fold it twice and wrap it around a wood post. Then take a knife and try to slash the wood through the towel.

I wear shoes to stop sharp stones sticking in my feet, nobody in their right mind would say I had armoured feet

this debate started, with someone saying they couldn't do kung fu on the battle field as they were wearing armour, now it turns out they had put an extra jumper on and thos wouldn't in anyway stop them kung fu fighting

 

[JowGaWolf]

I wear shoes to stop sharp stones sticking in my feet, nobody in their right mind would say I had armoured feet

this debate started, with someone saying they couldn't do kung fu on the battle field as they were wearing armour, now it turns out they had put an extra jumper on and thos wouldn't in anyway stop them kung fu fighting

armor is anything that helps to protect you against a weapon (and is usually worn on the body)