Old style Muay Thai?

[muay saksit]

Look at the USMTA website. There was a teacher in New York that teaches muay boran and he is recognized by the World Muay Thai Council. Most other schools are in Europe. Kru Marco DeCesaris wrote a book on muay boran and if i read it right muay boran was the name given to the older styles (muay korat, muay ta sao, muay chaiya, muay lopburi) around 1996 to try to keep them around because all the old masters were dying and know one was continuing the old styles. Panya Kraitus who wrote Muay Thai: The Textbook of Pahiyuth, is a student of a late muay chaiya master and his book is considered to be the bible of muay thai. Check it out if you don't have any luck with muay boran.

Marco de cesaris is not a real master of Muay Boran but is a good buisness man!
De cesaris make a big advertising in europ, concerning muay boran fight, in bareknukles, i have see the fight and fighter have not gloves ok as in muay boran BUT the rules was the Kyokushinkai rules!!! not fist or knee or elbow in the head!!!!

 

[meth18au]

Wow I go for a day or so, and come back to this. Interesting thread guys, keeps going

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

I just want to clarify one thing since I have been getting alot of emails from people from around the world on it. The Muay Chaiya texts by Kru Tong were not translated by me to sell or use in any way other than to learn and use as an explanation in my book of how the system was ordered and systematized by the teachers. It shows the great thought that went into the system to create a ladder of knowledge that grows in time. As well the late Kru Bua did a wonderful job with the Muay Korat system so we are lucky to have the work of both men as well Ajarn khetr to survive the systems with direct links to the past. Teachers also in the north east and the north did a wonderful job as well and all the texts do a wonderful job of explaining the systems in unique ways.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Hello again Blackdiamondcobra.
I just took notice to the old thread being bumped, and saw a few questions I had previously asked that went unanswered. They are quoted below. If you could respond to these, I'm sure it would clear up alot of the "shrouded" confusion this thread seems to be having. It also might interest alot of others in your upcoming book! Thanks. :asian:

Anyway, in your post... you stated that Kru Tong has mentioned in various articles that he has had trouble teaching Muay Chaiya. Can you provide links or reference materials for these articles? I would like to research these myself. Also, no disrespect to you but you haven't quite stated that you are affiliated with the Muay Chaiya foundation. So how is it exactly that you came into contact with Kru Tong? And more importantly, why would he provide you special notes regarding the entails of Muay Chaiya, when you represent a different style of Boran completely? namely Muay Korat via the Buddhai Swan? The main reason for Kru Tong's inexposure to Muay Thai as a whole, was out of his want to keep Chaiya entact, and not watered down.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Anyway, in your post... you stated that Kru Tong has mentioned in various articles that he has had trouble teaching Muay Chaiya. Can you provide links or reference materials for these articles?

I answered this question previously. I didnt state Kru Tong had trouble teaching Muay Chaiya, he never had trouble "teaching" nor did Ajarn Khetr, the system survives on TEACHERS who can fully embody the system and he was having trouble developing the instructors for the future(he stated this directly into my videotape camera and to hardy stockman and in print). A system can have multitudes of students but the instructors are who teach it and carry it to the future. It was a different landscape in the years before the "muay boran" craze, the younger kids didnt gravitate toward muay chaiya but other "exotic" martial arts that were taught. Ajarn Khetr tried to erase the "stigma" of muay thai(the parents seeing it as art of the poor kids desperately trying to fight their way out of poverty and thus something they didnt want their children associated with)by writing about muay chaiya and keeping it as a noble art thus you see alot of the middle class kids like ajarn lek, ajarn praeng being drawn to it and learning when they were young and then extending it to the university level. Even Ajarn Lek when he first started teaching was having trouble attracting students that would stick and stay but once people started to read and learn about it through articles, movies, tv, they came to train. Like I said one french researcher did an excellent article in english Muay Chaiya: fighting for survival, there was some also by hardy though I dont know if they were published, one in english by italian writer and researcher Sergio permutti. The Bangkok Post also always covered the thai martial arts when Hardy was editor and still do. Many others. Do the research and you will find them.

I dont understand also your question--are you disputing the fact that muay chaiya was not as popular as it became after kru tongs death? Muay Chaiya was taught but it wasnt popular by any means, the thais like to rewrite history backwards which is a great quote hardy told me. They see what it is today then go back and add it in the past. Muay Chaiya survived where other systems died out completely really because of Ajarn Khetr and the writing, teaching and respect he commanded and his ability to put out students like kru tong and many others who dont seek the limelight or teach commercially. remember also kru tong died young or young in my eyes because he was so strong and vital and tough, so alot of this would have been alot clearer if he would have lived on as i thought he would.

I would like to research these myself. Also, no disrespect to you but you haven't quite stated that you are affiliated with the Muay Chaiya foundation. So how is it exactly that you came into contact with Kru Tong?

Again putting words in my mouth. I am not affiliated to any foundation just my teachers. I am non commercial(I dont do martial arts for money and I pay for my own research and publishing myself) and dont get involved in politics which is what muay chaiya has become like it or not --- a minefield of ridiculous claims and politics. I came in contact as I said previously with Kru Tong through the late Hardy Stockman editor of the bangkok post who was close friends with the late Ajarn Khetr and kru tong, khetr wrote the forward to hardys book on muay thai, the first book in english on the subject. Hardy had researched Muay Chaiya through his close associations and passed on his work to me and made the introductions in the early 90s. I also met many of the instructors and students who were directly trained by Ajarn Khetr as well as one foreigner who came to train with khetr who provided me with alot of insight and his research. I was lucky to get it from alot of different sources and angles. This is what research is and where my training began.

And more importantly, why would he provide you special notes regarding the entails of Muay Chaiya, when you represent a different style of Boran completely?

I dont represent any system of boran as I said I am not involved in any of thepolitics you seem to be pushing. I started and continue to this day training in muay chaiya. He taught me the basics which i videotaped with hardy and gave me the corresponding notes then later my teachers provided me with the rest as i was learning I was translating and re learning. There are many excellent teachers who are non commercial and unknown but are brilliant teachers of muay chaiya both from ajarn khetr and kru tong and some from both teachers. Nobody could obtain back then kru tongs notes if they werent given to them directly by him or his trusted instructors. wouldnt happen and didnt happen. Nobody could just acquire it. That is a given. You had to be trusted.

The main reason for Kru Tong's inexposure to Muay Thai as a whole, was out of his want to keep Chaiya entact, and not watered down.

You are totally and utterly wrong. Kru tong fought against muay thai guys and he actually fought which is something most of his students and instructors didnt do nor learned from him. Kru Tong told me directly if i had any affiliation with muay thai, i could not speak nor train with him. They often tried to honor kru tong at muay thai events but he never went and never wanted to be associated with it. I asked Hardy why since it was kind of odd but he said kru tong didnt want any association with it. I have several american witnesses to this since he said it to me and one famous american muay thai instructor and another fighter. You can research that easily. If you track the genesis of this it came mostly from Ajarn Khetr who tried to keep muay chaiya seperate very seperate as i said previously from muay thai to keep it in its original form but it got twisted into a further battle as muay thai became more and more popular. kru tong inherited his teachers stand and being tough and brazen further pushed it. Kru Tong didnt need to study muay thai he could fight but I thought he should have seen it as a flow from the old muay to the new muay which was alot of safer and governed by rules. I remember in alot of the other muay chaiya classes with the people who kru tong taught that went on to teach, they would talk like kru tong everytime you brought up muay thai dismissing it way too easily especially for guys who didnt fight. The fact of the matter is there was a huge disdain for muay thai which was always puzzling. Probably still exists in alot of the classes. Once again you need to go to thailand and do your extensive research for a few years then we'll argue this and the other points at length.


namely Muay Korat via the Buddhai Swan?
The Buddhai Sawan method is not what I taught or represent I went to the buddhai sawan as well as other schools in thailand but its physical education and I went further and re educated myself in other krabi krabong systems that align themselves with the functional real world/combative material which is what i specialize in and teach. Dont CONFUSE my RESEARCH with my TRAINING though it would naturally overlap and associations made, etc. Muay korat is not taught at the buddhai sawan, the buddhai sawan teaches a physical education form of muay. I studied muay korat seperatedly and muay chaiya seperatedly and they are not mixed or diluted. just as I studied each different form of krabi krabong. I keep them as they are.

In doing research you have to see all ends so I tried to go and learn and interview the many different facets of each art, thus understanding each and also understanding the evolution of the phys ed formats which I went to the grade schools, universities to directly train in to understand them better. Its hard to comment on something you dont try to at least understand from the inside out. I did my best to do that for the research to be sturdy.

You know nothing of my backround and my training so try not to assume anything about me or my training. If you are going to do research I suggest you get on the plane to thailand and cross reference your material, something I havent seen any thai do and thus the holes in everythign they put out on the internet, in writing, video can have mack trucks driven through them. You will see like I have very clearly what the truth is. I am in thailand several times a year and you can PM when you arrive or before hand and you can address these questions to me in person. The only way to answer the questions you are asking is to personally do the research like I did and be ready to battle your way for the truth if that is what you want. One source, one foundation, one teacher is not going to do it for you or do your research justice.

I have really nothing more to say on this thread or this topic.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Thanks for the lengthy reply and the source! You really shouldn't take offense to my questions, judging by the context of your last paragraph. If you are going to make statements about Muay Thai, then expect someone to ask for your resources for said statements. I never "assumed" anything of your background, merely went by what you said. Maybe next time, you should answer quesitons instead of avoiding them. And I have been to Thailand, as I have already stated and have trained Muay Chaiya, so please don't assume you are the authorative figure on whats what with Muay Thai or Muay Boran. If you have research, thats great. But your research doesn't put you above or below anyone elses research, we're all students in this Art. So don't take offense when someone doesn't believe at first glance, that you have "secret notes from the dead Kru of Chaiya, which NO ONE else has seen or heard of." There are many people whom have trained Muay Chaiya alot longer than you, so I would be very surprised to find you had notes of something that hasn't already been taught.

At any rate, my point in this topic was merely to learn, as I have said from the beginning. Cross reference your research with my own that I have accumulated. But see, that can't be done when someone's references are about how "mysteriously shrouded" Muay Thai and its history is. Because no matter what you say, I've been to Thailand, and I know its not a mystery. And I'm sorry to say, but the only people whom cling to that are those with no credible sources... prime example DeCesaris. But anyway, thanks for your time, and I look forward to your book for a very interesting read.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

As I always state and have stated there are no secrets(the book of kru tong as well as the second shorter one with photos on the topic of self defense is known by all muay chaiya instructors and used as an aid to teach and nothing more). The myth building nonsense and secrets are the thais pushing it onto gullible foreigners like De Cesarsis who doesnt go back to see/research that its just modern phys ed and even now in Muay Chaiya in their political infighting on who knows what. I dont take any stance and have brought people with me to thailand to learn and train for over ten years free of charge many of which continue their own research in thailand and beyond in old muay, muay thai, different forms of kk, lerd rit, healing and massage,whatever. People have come to my home and watched the extensive footage collection of kru tong, the notes, photos, etc to fruther their own training and understanding in muay chaiya after training in thailand as well one of the muay chaiya people came to teach. My research has been long and on going and continues to this day. I have nothing to hide ever and like I said I am always there in SE Asia several times a year. I look at it from every angle and every direction and through every teacher and I am about to depart in two weeks again to train and research. Research evolves and changes and I present what I know. I am not an authoritative figure but any means but like I said if you can present something in english that even presents anythign close to the truth send it to me personally or PM. I work with at least one ph.D. advisor for each country to help organize, cross reference and present everything with footnotes and full bibliography so time is taken to be thorough. Sources take a long time to locate and I've been very lucky to have been given alot of previous research and writing that has been abandoned or inherited. My library is extensive in all languages and the translations and the rewriting and understanding is what has stalled the book or what has been the most time consuming since its a cross cultural study and not just about thailand and muay. There is also nothing in my stance that can be construed as mysteriously shrouded. Its clear and pragmatic. Anyone who knows my writing, my teaching and my research knows its clear, direct and pragmatic. I dont believe in mysteries and if they are there, they are clearly decoded. How I can deal in mysteries when I working in function and combatics? You'll be dead.

The problem also in translations like for example kru buas material of muay korat its almost like a poem and you need someone to explain and demonstrate and learn from even when the translations are done. So its like learning the system twice just like in muay chaiya. The notes help understand the material from the teachers perspective and nothing more. There are differences in the kru tong teaching and ajarn khetr, subtle adjustments and things. If you learn the system, then you learn the system(book or no book). My work is not about myself personally its about the research and training of a specific topic(the cross cultural legacy of bare knuckle fighting in southeast asia and india). What I teach, train and fight in is different. So I dont talk about myself which is why I avoid such conversation. On top of that I take no offense to your questions and answered them concisely. You can join the vanishing flame email newsletter and read some of the lengthy past reports on thailand for the more exact and detailed approaches to the research and the events. The reports total close to 150 pages of overview from the last several years(1999-present). Hope this clarifies things.

 

[Tee Sok]

I am an example of much of what Blackdiamondcobra is saying.

Not knowing where to go to seriously train in Thailand and having been
previously fooled by people like De Cesaris, l've been told where to go in
Thailand and since that day things have been going well.
Serious teachers there just want to do their job, they don't try to off
each other with stupid propaganda and claims. They know each other
and their respective work, they respect each other and are humble and
true to their art and students. This is a sign of maturity in my opinion,
and I cannot say the same about kru Praeng and others in Europe.

There is a discussion about some of the topics here:

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=25596

 

[Tee Sok]

Also, I think we can have a rough idea on how difficult it is to do serious
research and double check, triple check everything with different sources.
Energy, time and money spent just to get things straight and clear and later present them in a neutral, no-nonsense way.

Vincent is sharing his knowledge with whoever wants to listen and is serious, and he's sharing a lot in these posts right here and it is all most
interesting and can help people finding a way to train and study without
stumbling on individuals who are dedicated to fame and money.

 

[TongPo]

Try www.muaythailand.com or www.mymuaythai.com

 

[Harley_Ninja237]

i think any muay boran you find now will be B.S



thats what my muay thai coach said about most muay boran teachers in thailand
and if youre not gonna find a good muay boran teacher in thailand imagine how hard in usa

 

[Hua Lek]

Tee Sok,

Why are you so willing to make claims about someone such as Kru preang whom you have probably never met before?

Just curious...

 

[Kwai_Tua_Noi]

Hi there

Im new to this forum and this is the first post Ive made.

My research into Muay Boran has come up with pretty much the same conclusion as BlackDiamondCobra's. Though he probably has more info in Chaiya and Korat styles than mine as i live in the UK and barely have time to fly back to thailand to train properly.

Muay Boran is a general term used by the government and people to describe the ancient fighting styles of the thai people. It was and has been dying out for quite some time due to the fact that it just wasnt popular anymore. With the introduction of western style rules and heavy gambling, the more dangerous of the styles became, how shall we say... unprofitable. Great masters and boxers could not afford to make a living in an art where money could not be made out of it.

Even thai people (me included a few years back) did not even know of some of the styles such as muay chaiya, Korat, Lopburi and Ta sao. That was how bad it had gotten. Ever since the big boom in Muay Boran created by jaa panom in his movie ong bak it has suddenly become profitable again to teach those styles. Masters of the art are opening up new schools as well as 18 mongkut (conmen) out there to deprive the MT tourists of their money.

A question for blackdiamondcobra. Did you find any good schools that teach Ta Sao style? I know they dont teach foreigners but even though Im Thai its just so hard to find >_<. Also when will your book be out? i'll gladly buy it in its raw form lol my brain requires this information.

Anyways. Thai people have a habit of wanting to make money out of anything popular. Dont trust anything you see and read in the media or by the government. Do your own research and Buddhas light will shine on you on your path to true knowledge.

P.S blackdiamondcobra are you willing to share your research? lol i was also planning to write a book too lol

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Kwai Tua Noi:
Yes, I covered indepth and did alot of training in ta Sao bare knuckle under kru chalong who is very old but in great shape. My book is a bit delayed in release as it has been for some time but it will have alot of information for people to build further research on.

 

[Diesel Noi]

well my dear but unknown friend, i`m really glad that at last somebody besides a couple of my friends and i want to really learn the real muay thai, not trying to ofend the ring sport or the other sort of gyms that r teaching the modern and really effective style, this is a link that will help u, the bad thing is that u will only find it in Thailand, the good thing is that is for free and they teach almost all the oldest styles of this, I can`t find the words to describe it, beautiful, amazing, exciting art.

The name is muay thai sangka, go first to the web site, and if u really want it, but I mean REAAAAALLLYYY want to become a muay thai warrior then registrate and go to the appointment that WILL B SCHEDUALED ONLY FOR U.

BEst wishes if u want to go there, it is life changing, and if u do not want to go all the way to Thailand, well there are a few of nice videos about muay boran from Marco De Cesaris

 

[mmafan]

Kwai Tua Noi:
Yes, I covered indepth and did alot of training in ta Sao bare knuckle under kru chalong who is very old but in great shape. My book is a bit delayed in release as it has been for some time but it will have alot of information for people to build further research on.

Can you please give some more details of Muay Ta Sao style.'Ve seen in a website describing it as a style famous for their kicking abilities and speed , and the real name of the system is ling lom.
thanks in advance