Old style Muay Thai?

[blackdiamondcobra]

Thunderfoot:

I understand completely what you are trying to say. What is your training and backround in these systems?

De Cesaris research is questionable and certainly not scholarly or based on any actually training in the old systems with the old masters.

He has no cross reference or any understanding. its hollow. its confusing. He has no understanding of what is physical education vs what the actual systems are so its damaging to others understanding.

It was called Muay or when the time passed into Muay Thai which would make sense it was called Muay Boran or the ancient way of fighting. So after Muay Thai took hold, the bare knuckle could be called Muay Boran or Muay with a bound fist or any other name along those lines.

The term Muay Boran was then claimed by the physical Education department for their blanket redevelopment of a phys ed program, thus the confusion began and still remains. So it now has a dual meaning: Muay Boran as developed by the phys ed department as a blending of tactics into a program that can safely be taught and promoted in a blanket manner and Muay Boran as a term to describe the old systems of lopburi, chaiya, pra nakorn, lanna, isaan, korat, etc or the old way of fighting. two different things. two different ways of understanding.

When it was just Muay, it would be like Burmese Lethwei an active field of fighitng and bare knuckle or bound fist training, fighitng being the end result. There were authentic regional styles and ways of training as in Lethwei but when it came together in the ring it was a raw fight. So as the systems weathered away, they compiled them in a way to save them in total disreguard or acknowledgement of the old masters and the old systems. They should have co existed but they didnt and only know when its very late in the game are people trying to suddenly revive them in the last few years.

I walked every part of thailand and rescued and translated all the old documents, videotaped all the old masters of muay some of which very people even thais know exist including one master who is approaching 100 in the northeast. I correlated that with actual training in muay boran at the grade school level, high school level and college level with the instructors and with the classes. My knowledge also comes from the actual texts i inherited and the actual documentation of the original systems. This is the three fold research including my training starting in 1992 with the last of the masters across thailand.

My book The Vanishing Flame will clear this mess up once and for all with the programs of phys ed muay boran vs the actual systems side by side and then it will all be clear. Thus far all the writing in the english language is a confusion since the people dont understand who are writing about and havent done the research nor the training nor a combination of both.

 

[Truong]

When will your book be published? If possible i'd like to get a copy directly from you..I'll PM you

 

[Thunder Foot]

blackdiamondcobra,

Thank you for the informative post. I am familiar with most of the chain of events that you mentioned, and I am in disagreement. Not with what you said, but with the outcome of events. Because Muay Boran was used before this "Physical Education Department" (by the way, can you specify exactly what is the function of this Department, and what organization they are affiliated with? Just for clarification purposes) decided to make a composite of the Boran styles, as was previously stated. This is unacceptable and disrespectful in the world of Martial Arts as a whole in my opinion. If someone were to do the same to "Gung Fu" for example, they would not be accepted... because you can't create that which already exists. In example, I can't take Wing Chun Gung Fu, Hung Gar Gung Fu, Bagua Gung Fu.... combine them, and then proceed to call my newly developed composite style, "Gung Fu" completely ignoring the fact that Gung Fu already exists.

I suppose my gripe is with those whom have taken it upon themselves to attempt to re-define the term "Muay Boran", with a replacement of watered down compositions (no offense to you, if you practice that style). It just seems to me, that by cleverly labelling their newly developed style, "Muay Boran"... they purposely perpetuate this confusion that we're are both talking about. And now that more solid forms of Muay Boran are stepping out of Modern Muay Thai's shadow, here comes the confusion when this composite system is confronted by that which they attempt to duplicate. If this Phys Ed department and Marco DeCesaris are going to create a new composite system, then they should label it something different. Because calling it "Muay Boran" is as generic as saying Kung Fu, Karate, Wrestling, etc. And everyone I have ever come into contact with, knows Muay Boran as Ancient Boxing, not a composite system. And anyone whom has ever mentioned this composite system; either practices the style themselves, or heard it from someone who does practice it.

And I don't mean to sound cynical, but ever since the interest in Muay Boran by way of Tony Jaa... alot of people in Thailand now claim to know/teach Muay Boran. I'm not claiming to be an expert myself, simply asking for the references. So you'll have to excuse my skepticism. I just don't see Muay Boran being "shrouded in mystery" to the point where such action is needed. But I do look forward to your book, and the references in which you attained your information. :asian:

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

I dont think per se there is anything wrong here. I think its just poor understanding as I have said all along of the Thai Martial Arts as the people just accept things without a deeper understanding. I knew about this, wrote about this since 1993 with people attacking me from every end that I was wrong its now 13 years later with 13 years more training and research and people still havent woken up and I'm back arguing the same points.

They want to believe because something is in a fancy magazine or a fancy book that its just true then so be it. The bare knuckle arts were dying out completely when I first began training and interest in Krabi Krabong was sorely waning. The interest of phys ed definitely gave people a strong teaching template and an place for it to always be there. So it has tremendous importance because when the revitalization began due to things like Ong Bak and in Muay Thai with Buakaw, the phys ed department pushed it into the commercial realm via people like De Cesarsis. They believe their material draws a person back to the great grandmasters like Kru Bua, etc but it only marginally does because people believe the phys ed material is complete and the be and end all which is a brutal and sorry mistake same as in Krabi Krabong. As I stated earlier, if an instructor whether he is thai or not, doesnt understand this and can tell you clearly what he is teaching you then he is just playing you for the fool.

Muay Boran is its original state was about fighting first and foremost as a active fighting system or martial art, contact is made. It has a spiritual component, a fighting component, a self defense component, a philosophy and a theory. If it is devoid of actual application and fighting then its missing the very essence of its core.

I'll leave this conversation here for the time being. Its too big a topic for now. The book is the place for the complete picture to happen and be realized.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Well, I thank you for all the information that you have provided. I'm really just trying to understand the lineage via references, that this Phys Ed Department acquires its Muay Boran. There are so many people out there now days, whom claim to teach Muay Boran, and all I ask is the references hehe. There shouldn't be any reason why there would be mysticism behind the lineage. At any rate, Muay Boran was never waning or disappearing to my knowledge. It was practiced and continues to be practiced just like anything else, within Thailand. That is where the Mae Mai and Look Mai in Modern Muay Thai are derived from, Muay Korat style of Boran. So when someone tells me they have taken the liberty of ressurecting a dying art, I tend to listen cautiously. One prime example of a "surviving" Boran, is the Muay Chaiya Foundation. They have been doing Muay Boran for years and years, and have kept their lineage and style intact. So Muay Boran isn't as mysterious as some play it out to be. Just sounds like a cover up for the missing links in the system of this "newly developed style". DeCesaris gives references to Muay Chaiya in his book, but has never learned Muay Chaiya or been affiliated with the organization. And because Muay Chaiya has existed as one example, and continues to... I can't buy into this whole "revitalization of Muay Thai" concept that you are bringing forth.

And I understand if the Phys Ed Department wants to preseve that which they believe to be disappearing, but they are only perpetuating the mis-understanding of Muay Boran with statements like "Muay Boran is a newly developed system comprised of..." and so on and so forth, and never exactly stating that Muay Boran existed prior to this new composition. If I am understanding correctly, you are speaking of the Phys Dept of the Royal Thai Army. And if that is the case, they only represent one fraction of one style of Muay Boran. Hardly a means of justification to redefine the word Muay Boran. It is written clear as day in DeCesaris book as well, that they are redefining the meaning of Muay Boran. And to his advantage too, because there isn't any other Muay Boran books written (alteast in a language other than Thai), to compare these claims to. I mean, just the fact that the book mentions things about Muay Chaiya, without ever having learned it.... who knows what other styles of Muay Boran will continue to be perversed.

Muay Boran isn't ancient "lost knowledge" that needs ressurection. And as I previously stated, now that Muay Boran is coming out of the shadows of Modern Muay Thai, this composite system of Muay Boran, perpetuated by DeCesaris... will continue to be confronted by those whom the system attempts to duplicate.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Thunderfoot:
I beg to differ than the old styles werent dying. They were. If you look at old articles like Muay Chaiya Fighting For survival and at the time when I started in Muay Chaiya in 1992 and continue to this day, we can see the difference. There were so few students until the recent years also suddenly now alot of thais have come out of the woodwork and have schools and are instructors which are suspect. Nobody was interested in it and also the late Kru Tong at the time, didnt accept any acknowledgement from the Muay Thai community and stayed away from them hurt it even more(this was begun by his teacher Ajarn Khetr). The systems were dying and some even died out. One of the key luminaries in bare knuckle who was instrumental in the development of the original Ring Muay Thai transition is barely remembered and his old style of muay not even spoken about. Very few of the original Muay Korat teachers continue open classes. Its not like you think. There is nothing in the english language on this and very little in Thai unless you train in Thailand you will not know the issues at hand and actual events that went on over the years

 

[thaistyle]

Excellent posts between you guys. Very informative. You both have done your homework. Thunderfoot and I had a similar debate, through PM, a couple of months back.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Blackdiamondcobra:

Kru Tong had many Chaiya students around the time you stated, so I'm unsure of your sources telling you that the style was dying.There were many people interested in it, but at that particular time... the Chaiya style of Boran was being overshadowed by the more popular, Modern Muay Thai. That doesn't mean the style was dying out... just because it wasn't as widely practiced as Modern Muay. And Kru Tong didn't want to be affiliated with the Modern Muay becuase he did not want the Chaiya style to become watered down, with the advancement of the Ring Sport, which prohibited alot of the techniques that are at the heart of Muay Chaiya. This doesn't mean Kru Tong stopped teaching., nor does it mean that no one was interested in the style at the time. If this was true, then what motivated Tony Jaa to learn Muay Boran before creating Ong Bak? The style being in the public eye has nothing to do with a style "dieing". And there are Muay Korat Kru's as well. They may not be affiliated with the World Muay Thai Council, out of fear of the watering process... but they exist in Thailand. If you studied Muay Chaiya, then this should be common knowledge for you. Whom did you study under? Kru Preang? At any rate, as Muay Boran gains in popularity... more people whom have been practicing in the shadows of Modern Muay Thai, will come forward. :asian:

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Thunderfoot:
Kru Tong had alot of students, but few people who were allowed to teach under him. I did numerous interviews with kru tong on tape about this and inherited the notes and did further work with the late Hardy Stockmand and Kru Tong on this very subject. He let people like kru praeng teach but he supervised everything and often he would take the top students and train them from there. Most of the students didnt teach as well students of his teacher Ajarn khetr taught here and there. There was little to no interest but Kru Tong continued teaching. Where did you get your information from and where did you train in this system? Its not sources I am giving, its my own research and training since 1992 year after year that I am telling you. again its conjecture you are bringing up and not actual information. People in thailand like to rewrite history backward meaning they change the past to conform what they like to do in the future. There also has been and continues to be a perverse racism against outsiders gaining access to the system in totality covered by the fact that they say they will teach outsiders only to string them along for years and years when they themselves learned the system in a couple of years. I have studied muay korat as well and know all the teachers as well translated all the handwritten documents of the late kru bua which is the compelte system and all techniques, as well I have translated the complete book of techniques and self defense of Kru Tong. So the knowledge is deep. I am happy for the resurgence of the old muay and know many of the old masters and have trained with them year after year but again everything has to put into perspective. There are alot of articles from france, italy, germany and the us with kru tong where he states alot of the problems of trying to get the thai kids to train in the old traditional systems vs the exotics of tae kwon do, etc. He stated at one point he was down to just eight students, (not instructors) and things were tough. He later got into the universities which was his last bid to try to get it out there and thats where kru praengs help came in. There were alot of students of his teacher Ajarn Khetr too but in the future preservation of the system, we look to instructors who have completed the system and have the endorsement of their teacher or teachers not the students to carry it into the future in its full breath. The reason for the preservation society was to try and save it as a resource for thai youth. Now it is an active resource again and many Thai and foreigners train in the system and respect it which I am sure would make ajarn khetr and kru tong happy. People are merely looking at it as it is now or in the last few years but it was a different scenario in the 90s way different. Anybody who was around back then can easily verify that.

 

[PhilDunlap]

I would like to comment on this as Vincent is one of the leaders in actual factual research on the South East Asian arts. He was traing in KK long before most westerners had ever heard of it.

 

[Thunder Foot]

I'm assuming Vincent is Mr. Blackdiamondcobra? Thats great, he has mentiiopned his affiliation with the Buddhai Swan. But we are speaking of Muay Boran, not KK. Appreciate the info though. This makes for great conversation.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

The conversation remains focused on muay boran, although the parallels to kk and the development and use of physical education mirrors and shows the same path that muay boran in recent years has taken. My first book is on bare knuckle fighitng in se asia and india, so my main body of study was the khmer bare knuckle and weapons when I was young then to the thai bare knuckle, weapons and muay thai while living and training there year after year then burmese. The second book is on the sword arts and the third is on the wrestling methods comprising the three foundations of the old arts.

In order to have these indepth conversations one must also understand things beyond just the martial arts and teachers but the situation with the social and economic views at the time. This also has alot to do with parents of the younger children steering them to things non thai because of a certain stigma attached to arts like Muay Thai which was considered for the lowest and poorest to fight their way out of their bad situaiton. It changes over time and thus this has to be taken into the equation.

There is enough written on muay chaiya over the various periods to adequately demonstrate the situation from the different decades. When you cross reference this to the other information you get a much broader and clearer view.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Blackdiamondcobra:

My information comes from Kru Praeng as translated by one of his senior students, whom also had the pleasure of training with Kru Tong. The information I was given, varies greatly from that which you have provided. Anyway, in your post... you stated that Kru Tong has mentioned in various articles that he has had trouble teaching Muay Chaiya. Can you provide links or reference materials for these articles? I would like to research these myself. Also, no disrespect to you but you haven't quite stated that you are affiliated with the Muay Chaiya foundation. So how is it exactly that you came into contact with Kru Tong? And more importantly, why would he provide you special notes regarding the entails of Muay Chaiya, when you represent a different style of Boran completely? namely Muay Korat via the Buddhai Swan? The main reason for Kru Tong's inexposure to Muay Thai as a whole, was out of his want to keep Chaiya entact, and not watered down. Also, have you had the pleasure of training with Kru Praeng? I'm assuming you would, in order to know the difference between Tong's and Praeng's teaching methods. At any rate, there are a handful of people training with Kru Praeng whom also had the pleasure of training with Kru Tong. But if you've been training with them since '92, you probably know much more than I do. When was the last time you trained Muay Chaiya, and with whom? because I understand you stated you've been learning Boran with alot of the old Masters since that time, but you weren't specific as to which styles of Boran.

At any rate, refering back to our original discussion, I still don't see justification to attempt to redfine the term "Muay Boran", without acknowledging the prior existence of Boran. I have been told that the Phys Ed department, and those associated with DeCesaris, give references to Chaiya without having ever learned it. That is a bit of bad taste in mu opinion. :asian:

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

The articles on muay chaiya are from various countries. I was given a large body of them from a person who was researching it early on then gav eup, from the late hardy stockman and from my own library. none of them are on line as far as I know. I met kru tong though the late Hardy Stockman, editor of the bangkok post, and author of the first book on muay thai in english. He was best of friends with the late Ajarn Khetr so he had a close relationship with kru tong. So alot of information came directly from both men as well some training with kru tong. I trained with alot of muay chaiya teachers over the years and kept with two of them which I deem to be true and open to teaching. I will be training again in a few weeks when I return as I do several times a year. My teachers will be acknowledged in my book. I didnt say anything about praengs vs tongs teaching, praeng was kru tongs top student, teaching evolves, Kru Tongs teaching is slightly different and varied then Ajarn Khetrs, though all the principles, techs and everything remain intact for all of them, thats the beauty of having a sturdy tree that has wonderul branches.

Buddhai Sawan teaches a generic phys ed system. I learned muay korat from one of the students of Kru bua. The other systems and teachers and full biographies etc will be in the book. I'll try to come back to this at a later date as I am preparing to travel.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Sorry I tried to revise and fix up my last post but I couldnt.

To conclude and return to the original topic, I believe the physical education department had a noble original purpose in putting the muay boran and krabi krabong programs into the school system to instill national pride, self esteem, historical understanding and discipline through the thai martial arts. I agree with you that it should have been clear about the true origins and masters and included those great stories to make it even more interesting and to acknowledge the actual systems and masters but it never happened. In the growing face of commerce and control, it got worse to where once again they rewrote history for their own making and attempted to erase the actual systems in a bid to push their own agenda. This is what created this huge mess.

Its a good lesson because it will play itself out again in Cambodia and Burma. The governemnt phys ed department has already seized hold of the
Burmese arts and we'll see this get stronger and stronger over the years until there is nothing left but a generic template with its own true history.

This is a good topic for that reason. It leads to a deeper understanding of things that go beyond just the martial arts and the teachers.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Cambodia and Burma you say? Can you tell us a little bit more about that? I know they still conduct the Kad Cheuk style fighting over there, and I was told by my Kru recently that a Dutchman competed there and unfortunately lost. I am not too familiar with Cambodia however. What exactly is the Phys Ed's role in the involvement of the Burmese Lethwei?

 

[lhommedieu]

Just wondering if you've heard about this guy - and how he might fit into the picture?

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Thunder Foot]

Hmm... haven't heard any information on that person. I'll have to look into it further. It wouldn't surprise me though, because Muay Boran is not limited to a handful of instructors like some would have you believe. The more mysticism put around the art, the easier it is to manipulate enthusiasts. :asian:

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Colonel Amnat is a very good friend of mine and an excellent researcher and practitioner. The idea behind the dvds was try to do something with the strategies and principles of the old arts which are very hard to translate and demonstrate, so alot of the common lines from the old arts can become clearer. Also his work in translating the pichai songkram or thai manual of warfare throughout the years is one of the things that is going to take the thai arts to another level of understanding. getting our english translation together will produce an outstanding manual that again will reflect upon the entire spectrum of thai martial arts. The dvds are an overview of theories and tactics then he starts moving into specific tactics of specific systems in this way he can present "muay" or muay boran in another way that shows the real one dimensionality of the phys ed take on it and introduce some of the other neglected elements.

 

[Thunder Foot]

I am not too familiar with Cambodia however. What exactly is the Phys Ed's role in the involvement of the Burmese Lethwei?

Any info on this? :asian: