No... Boxing, Escrima, you name it.
Ok, how do you get to THAT point.....?
- Thread starter Forever Training
- Start date
In that case I would ask you to be a little more specific or perhaps you could refer me to some reference. I am not familiar at all with this concept.No... Boxing, Escrima, you name it.
;asian:
Well, in boxing it is pretty simple. The set position, which is, both gloves on either side of your face. The idea here is that you always move and make decisions from this position, and get back to it as soon as possible. Stick fighting was taught to me with this in mind, and after watching the experts, they all seem to be alternating circles, while positioning themselves with their feet; so, I don't really know what to say other than this is all I know. LOL Techniques (kenpo) or One steps (TKD) are just examples of someone that did this, and are just models for us to follow and try to emulate. Points of reference are how they did it in the first place.
Sean
almost a ghost
Blue Belt
Like you, I was received my 1st dan ranking in SKK, and just like you I had that issue of not being able to dynamically respond to an attack. There were a lot of times I would just freeze during the 'dragon circle' and this greatly affected my confidence if I was ever able to get into a situation outside of the dojo.
I had to stop studying MA while I got into the working adult world, but when I got back into training I knew that I wanted to be able to dynamically respond without thinking of what I was doing. I decided to change styles. After studying, and now teaching, a much "smaller" style, this is what I would say to a friend if they asked how SKK could be better:
Stop doing 50% of the system. There is too much material in SKK. I use to think the issue was the mashing of styles, but even still you are burdened with way too much material for you to remember for rank tests and that is taking time away from actually exploration (practice, discussion, dissection, and adapting) of the techniques and forms. Too many forms, too many hard coded techniques (defense maneuvers/combinations), too many elective techniques (kempo punch techniques), and all of that before you even get into defenses against grabs and weapons.
To quote Bruce Lee "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
Think of it as Defensive Driving. It is the stuff they teach you to do automaticly without thinking that will save you: Safe distance; look both ways if your first in line at a green light; Don't change lanes on an icy bridge...
That's fine. I don't have a problem with that concept. That to me is the use of peripheral vision which is a key concept of our training. It's the hand to the hip and shoulder bit that has me interested.Think of it as Defensive Driving. It is the stuff they teach you to do automaticly without thinking that will save you: Safe distance; look both ways if your first in line at a green light; Don't change lanes on an icy bridge...
:asian:
Ah, well consider you are blocking or parrying a strike toward your face. Rather than returning to the hip, you might ride the force back toward the opposite shoulder, which puts you in a position to deliver a mean back-knuckle, or maybe counter-grab. It doesn't matter. Logic put you there, and just might put you back there, or maybe the hip this time.
None of the driving stuff is about vision. It is about reaction time.
No... Boxing, Escrima, you name it.
Your method of description of what and how you are doing what you are doing is distinct to your lineage, what you are actually doing may well be universal.
I can only explain it how my pea brain understands it, but I concede to your point.
I do believe this is all the first step in that, "Mind of pay no never mind stuff. LOLI can only explain it how my pea brain understands it, but I concede to your point.
Well, in boxing it is pretty simple. The set position, which is, both gloves on either side of your face. The idea here is that you always move and make decisions from this position, and get back to it as soon as possible. Stick fighting was taught to me with this in mind, and after watching the experts, they all seem to be alternating circles, while positioning themselves with their feet; so, I don't really know what to say other than this is all I know. LOL Techniques (kenpo) or One steps (TKD) are just examples of someone that did this, and are just models for us to follow and try to emulate. Points of reference are how they did it in the first place.
Sean
OK. Got it. It was the reference to the hip that got me. We don't have anything that goes near the hip.
Some basic drills in some styles have a hand at the hip but that is only in kihon. Not in fighting.Yeah! That makes sense but why you would return your hand to your hip in a real fight doesn't make any sense to me. The only time you see it is in tournament sparring.Ah, well consider you are blocking or parrying a strike toward your face. Rather than returning to the hip, you might ride the force back toward the opposite shoulder, which puts you in a position to deliver a mean back-knuckle, or maybe counter-grab. It doesn't matter. Logic put you there, and just might put you back there, or maybe the hip this time.
Reaction time is aided by peripheral vision.None of the driving stuff is about vision. It is about reaction time.
:asian:
Good point! I wouldn't put my hand at my hip either, but much higher. Look, same shoulder and same hip are really variations of the same thing. It is relatively the same position but palm up, or palm out.OK. Got it. It was the reference to the hip that got me. We don't have anything that goes near the hip.
Yeah! That makes sense but why you would return your hand to your hip in a real fight doesn't make any sense to me. The only time you see it is in tournament sparring.
Reaction time is aided by peripheral vision.
:asian:
Lightning Ram
Yellow Belt
FT- Before you do these drills spend time on, #1 recognizing the attack first, (you see whats coming at you then react), and the position you are in when the attack is happening, start small and just block the first technique and expand from there, #2 free sparring will also help your reaction time for you brain to recognize attacks. #3 Start with defensive moves then graduate to offense moves. Repetition and focus is key. If your not focus and use repetition only it will be a longer road.
I feel I'm at that level. How did I get there? Working hard and training in a spontaneous fashion. IMO, by the time someone is at green or brown, they should be working on this as part of their regular training, but there's no reason you can't slowly introduce it to lower ranks. One thing that I'd always stress to my students, is to not be bound by the preset SD techs. They're designed to be examples. Drill the basics...over and over and over...and over! I tell this story every time a question like this comes up. During one class, I had the class for a big circle, and I'd put one student in the middle and have the people on the outside attack. At one point, there was a lower ranked student in the middle. I had one of the people on the outside, do an attack, which I new the other person, didn't have a preset defense for. They stood there with that deer in the headlights look, and said they didn't know what to do. I asked them if they knew how to block. They said yes. I asked if they knew how to punch and kick. Yes. I asked if they knew how to move. Again, I got a yes. I said, Good, then do it! My point was...I didn't care if they pulled off a preset tech. I wanted to see how they'd react under pressure. If that punch is coming, they've got a choice...stand there and get hit or defend themselves. I didn't care if they simply blocked and kicked the groin. KISS is the goal. Defend yourself.
During my private lessons with one of my Kenpo teachers, we'd drill this stuff all the time. I had no idea what he was going to do. Punch, kick, grab, weapon..no idea until he did it. And he was trying to hit me too. None of this stopping half way BS. If I didn't move, I got hit..period! No, the techs during this training don't look pretty. It's not supposed to.
Don't mistake that for me saying that you should look like crap, just flailing away, with no purpose behind your moves. But again, my goal wasn't to use a preset tech. My goal was to use the principles those techs taught. So, no, there is no secret to success, other than hard work and training this a lot! If someone attacks you on the street, they're not going to square up all pretty like you see people do in class, and throw a half assed punch, or any other attack that you know is coming. That said, if that is all the student is used to, well, they're either going to get knocked on their *** or hope they've got luck on their side.
Kframe
Black Belt
My new art of Taijutsu has a kata learning format like Parker kenpo. I understand it is the traditional way to learn but, my question is, how can they expect us to use these under duress? By they, I mean the creators of kenpo and any other partnered kata art. Im still to new at this, and I do rather enjoy my training its just I need to understand this..
Ya BBT has quite a few kata, and I know that the parker styles have many as well. So that being what it is, what is the intention of paired kata systems. Is it to give you so many kata that it covers every situation or some other reason? If your constantly learning 100's of kata, how do you ever find the time to apply anything free form?
Ya BBT has quite a few kata, and I know that the parker styles have many as well. So that being what it is, what is the intention of paired kata systems. Is it to give you so many kata that it covers every situation or some other reason? If your constantly learning 100's of kata, how do you ever find the time to apply anything free form?
You should be practicing free form somewhat regularly. The purpose of the kenpo techs, I can't speak for anything in Taijutsu, but they are just examples of motion, nobody should expect that anyone to go through all the choreography of a particular sequence. The idea is that you could pull the first two moves of a technique out, and then finish with a sweep from another technique, and then ground and pound him out with a combo out of a third. Our school practiced free form reaction to attacks about a third of the time spent training the self-defense material. And we did this from an early period, a white belt who had their fundamentals is thrown into the mix with instructions of "get offline, hit a vital, get out." Pretty simple really. Later, if you actually pull a long string from a technique out, thats great, that wasn't the goal. And often I would say "do you know what you just did?" Often they wouldn't have a clue what named technique it came from, which is sort of the point.
Kframe
Black Belt
Blindside, Freeform is not the norm in BBT.. The closest I have seen and im not high enough KYU to attend the class is our randori class. So far it is, free form but they were doing in a very slow aspect. I assume that to be the case because it was a low kyu(higher then me) attending it. I thought it would pick up, but when I watched the 2 black belts, they were moving at only slightly higher speed and intensity with the swords.
I know that the kata are there to teach principals, and you are to learn and forget them.. Problem is I guess im just doubting my ability to apply the principals with the limited amount of freeform my art does.
I know that the kata are there to teach principals, and you are to learn and forget them.. Problem is I guess im just doubting my ability to apply the principals with the limited amount of freeform my art does.
Hopefully you learn not to forget them.
You've barely begun training in that methodology. Give it a chance; it's survived as a teaching method for more than a little while. Related methods are even used in many different areas, including current police and military training. The thing about any training to reach free form responses is that you have to practice and advance beyond the first level. A boxer who drills his combos in shadow boxing and the heavy bag, but never works with a coach on moving pads and never spars will have trouble applying his skills, no matter how dedicated he is to shadow boxing and bag work. Someone who never moves beyond one-step responses, whether a Bujinkan or even koryu kata or a TKD one-step exercise, or one of the Parker Kenpo techniques, will never develop the instinctive response. You have to begin by doing the rote, simplistic responses -- but then, as you develop skill with them, your training partners have to change the game a bit. They can speed it up, they may change the attack that's fed, they may catch you dropping your guard and tap you to let you know... Eventually (I've said this before), that prescribed kata becomes free flowing... and in time, two skilled practitioners may seem to be doing the kata -- but their focus and intention throughout is so perfect that they're reacting the only way they can. Kind of hard to understand; Chris posted a link not too long ago of people doing kata from a koryu style where they never stopped, even as one's wooden weapon broke, and another where they kept going despite being hit in the head.
Let me try to put it another way. Free form, instinctive responses are the result of deeply and thoroughly engraving the principles of your style, so that your instinctive responses get rewired, and what comes out of you by surprise is what's supposed to happen. You have to start with the structured responses to reach the unstructured responses.
Latest Discussions
-
-
-
Is there an effective beginner friendly martial art that fits my mentality?
- Latest: Monkey Turned Wolf
-
-