O Sip Sa Bo - Gojushiho - Useishi - Thoughts, applications, origins, etc

[Makalakumu]

This thread is for the discussion of the advanced TSD form O Sip Sa Bo. Most of the time this hyung is taught at forth dan and above. O Sip Sa Bo is related to the Japanese form Gojushiho, which is derived from the Okinawan form Useishi. There is a lot of difference in interpretation across the cultures leading to a difference in practice. What do you think about this form? Do you practice it regularly? What applications do you practice? Where does the TSD version of this form come from?

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is a video of the TSD version...

Here is the wiki entry on the hyung.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gojushiho

 

[DMcHenry]

That video was performed too slow for me (maybe I'm just way too fast). I guess I mix a couple of styles when I do it, TSD as the base, but with Shotokan and Shorinryu influences, with maybe a few of my own.

 

[Makalakumu]

I practice the Shito Ryu version of this form, because I am not a fan of some of the changes that were made in the TSD version. I have a video of it that I'll post in a few days. I'll break it down at that time as well. What I find interesting about this form is that it seems to combine many of the features of Shuri-te and Tomari-te. You have fast stepping and strikes combined with the flowing locks and throws that you see in various kata from the various regions.

The wiki says that this form comes from the Pheonix Eye system. However, the Bubishi has an article that takes about the 54 steps of the Black Tiger. Could this be related to some Tiger inspired wushu?

 

[dancingalone]

I didn't know about the connection to the phoenix eye system. The quick hand actions on both sides in the form do remind me of the phoenix eye forms I've seen, but they use an open hand rather than the phoenix eye fist. <Shrugs> Not sure if the connection is too relevant today given the likely divergence from the root Chinese form...

When I practice this form (the shorin-ryu version, which I do rarely) my motions are much softer and bigger than demonstrated by the person in the video and I also use my waist to power the hand movement, more like the cloud hands found in Yang tai chi.

I rarely practice the kata because the concepts it teaches are best practiced with a partner, and doing it solo is a poor, poor substitute.

 

[Makalakumu]

I didn't know about the connection to the phoenix eye system. The quick hand actions on both sides in the form do remind me of the phoenix eye forms I've seen, but they use an open hand rather than the phoenix eye fist. <Shrugs> Not sure if the connection is too relevant today given the likely divergence from the root Chinese form...

When I practice this form (the shorin-ryu version, which I do rarely) my motions are much softer and bigger than demonstrated by the person in the video and I also use my waist to power the hand movement, more like the cloud hands found in Yang tai chi.

I rarely practice the kata because the concepts it teaches are best practiced with a partner, and doing it solo is a poor, poor substitute.

I think this kata has some pretty strong principles and I do agree, they are best practiced with a partner. On the other hand, I've found that ALL karate kata are mnemonic devices and aren't really devised for stand alone practice.

I really like the trapping applications in this kata. I think this is one of the better kata for dealing with individuals in the clinch.

 

[DMcHenry]

I really like the trapping applications in this kata. I think this is one of the better kata for dealing with individuals in the clinch.

Would you mind going into a little more detail on this?

 

[Makalakumu]

Would you mind going into a little more detail on this?

The TSD version of this kata has removed most of the infighting moves, replacing them with spear hand strikes. The Shito Ryu version is closer to the root of what was envisioned when this kata was made. This is the version I learned and practiced.

I like the spear hand strikes as they are done with a pressing down block and directed toward the throat and eyes. I sometimes practice that technique as an uppercut. Also, the grabbing moves controlling the weapon are more emphasized.

Lastly, when you combine these applications into flow drills where you change them up into the kata applications, one begins to see this could be applied in a self defense situation.

 

[DMcHenry]

I'm a TSD guy and I don't care for the way I see TSD players do it. On those spear hands, I do them more circular, in an upward fashon in a more parrying/deflecting motion (among other differences I do).

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm a TSD guy and I don't care for the way I see TSD players do it. On those spear hands, I do them more circular, in an upward fashon in a more parrying/deflecting motion (among other differences I do).

I still consider the core of the art that I practice to be TSD. I'm willing to import different takes on the same kata and pull in various pieces to make some of the more curious moves in the TSD canon make more sense.

I have never liked the traditional interpretation for the spear hand. I usually change those to fists or I do with them what the OLD Okinawan kata did, which was direct them to the eyes.

 

[Muwubu16858]

The Oh Ship Sa Bo in TSD looks like Hwang Kee's take of the Gojushiho Dai practiced in Shotokan, while Gojushiho Sho is actually borrowed by Shotokan from the Shitoryu style, but, as is usual, was changed to fit the style as well.

Shotokan Gojushiho Sho

Shotokan Gojushiho Dai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz8mmzdX43Q&feature=related

The older of the styles of Gojushiho in this situation is the Shito ryu version, though I tend to use the version by Sakagami Ryusho (a disciple of Mabuni Kenwa), and my teacher knows several.

 

[OldKarateGuy]

In answer to your original post, I don't think many practitioners at my TSD organization know, or at least perform Oh Sip Sah Bo much. I don't think I have ever seen it done at an event, and I believe it may be considered a 7th dan form (!), which is somewhat limiting.

I did the shotokan "Sho" version (the "minor" according to JKA, but the "dai" version in SKI) at an open tournament and I don't believe most of the TSD students had ever seen it before, or knew it could be a TSD hyung (with some small changes).

As someone else pointed out, the TSD version most closely resembles Gojushiho Dai (JKA), not the "Sho" version, although anyone seeing any of the three forms would instantly recognize it.

I did have one comment, which is not necessarily limited to this form. Looking at the various videos, if there is any one thing which jumps out, it is the footwork of the Tang Soo Do version when compared to any of the Japanese kata. The Japanese kata, pretty much across the spectrum, tend to have the feet barely lift and quickly get back to ground. The base foot tends not to move or adjust before the other foot moves. The student performing generally tries to maintain an even height (save those positions when you might stand erect, etc) throughout. When watching TSD hyung, I think there are many circumstances of an actual step, with the foot elevated in an almost exaggerated stepping motion. The performer tends to bob up and down. The feet shuffle and shift. Combine these, and the hyung looks a little jerky and disjointed at times, although there is obviously power.

Although some of what I have described as the Japanese way of doing kata has a practical application, some is undoubtedly simply for the flow and appearance. I'm not trying to claim either way is superior or inferior. However, don't you think that the TSD forms would perhaps benefit from some effort to take lower steps, smoother flow, etc?

I've done several different martial arts, and I consider TSD my central style.

 

[JWLuiza]

I did have one comment, which is not necessarily limited to this form. Looking at the various videos, if there is any one thing which jumps out, it is the footwork of the Tang Soo Do version when compared to any of the Japanese kata. The Japanese kata, pretty much across the spectrum, tend to have the feet barely lift and quickly get back to ground. The base foot tends not to move or adjust before the other foot moves. The student performing generally tries to maintain an even height (save those positions when you might stand erect, etc) throughout. When watching TSD hyung, I think there are many circumstances of an actual step, with the foot elevated in an almost exaggerated stepping motion. The performer tends to bob up and down. The feet shuffle and shift. Combine these, and the hyung looks a little jerky and disjointed at times, although there is obviously power.

My "flavor" of TSD tends not to step high and maintain a level body height. I know ITF (C.S. Kim KJN) tends to have high steps.

I wish more people would post applications...but in a TSD school it is generally given to more seasoned practitioners.

Here's some application from end of Seishan that I find food:
http://blog.iainabernethy.com/?p=376

 

[DMcHenry]

I'm not used to seeing those high steps either, and don't care for it myself.

Personally, I don't do it that way and would never teach anyone to perform it like that.