O.K.. Gotta ask...Stephen K Hayes?

[Deaf]

I am ware of that. I was refering to the talk of unskilled students. if someone practices 2 kata for 6 months at a time, and still does'nt have the skills, then, you know..... maybe they should try something else....like sitting. It is just that I cant understand why people would say someone is unskilled if they must spend this long on each kata. I am not complaining....but others seem to be.

I purchase the monthly lesson, and each one has 2-4 kata on it. I dont use it only as a source of MA though. I also study at the Seattle Shinobu dojo (bujinkan) occasionally.

Whoa dude...did I say that because you are studying only 2 kata for 6 months that you suck? NO, I did not, so I don't know where you got that line of thinking from.

I'm not saying that you're going to suck by practicing and learning Toshindo, every art has it's pros and cons. And even thought Toshindo is based on or "distilled" Bujinkan knowledge that Hayes put together, it is a different art than Bujinkan. Thus my argument to begin with...Toshindo is Toshindo and NOT Bujinkan!

~Deaf~

 

[Elizium]

Well as everyone is saying Ninjutsu in this thread, maybe I should say taijutsu as ninjutsu is the essence of the ninja, and we are all studying taijustu to learn movement. We are not learning ninjutsu for movement, that is ideology, taijustsu is your motivation in training.

 

[Cryozombie]

Well as everyone is saying Ninjutsu in this thread, maybe I should say taijutsu as ninjutsu is the essence of the ninja, and we are all studying taijustu to learn movement. We are not learning ninjutsu for movement, that is ideology, taijustsu is your motivation in training.

Potayto/Pototo...

You are right of course... :asian:

 

[Shogun]

Whoa dude...did I say that because you are studying only 2 kata for 6 months that you suck? NO, I did not, so I don't know where you got that line of thinking from.

No, you did'nt. thats not what I was saying. I am saying that, all the talk of watered down, innefective, and so on...really what has been said on this forum is controdicting. Does anyone know for sure where the argument lies...? I am completely lost at this point. Watered down? if he teaches both, the how is it watered down? if people learn it fast, doesnt that make it simply easy to learn? I just am not even sure what we are talking about anymore. this is what I think;
1. SKH is a great teacher. He is full of useful info, and I would train personally if I had the chance.
2. Toshindo, even though some people dont like it, is developed with modern fighting in mind, and I respect Hayes for bringing Ninjutsu to the new age.

so, really, it boils down to a matter of opinion. I like what hayes has done. thats it.

 

[Cryozombie]

No, you did'nt. thats not what I was saying. I am saying that, all the talk of watered down, innefective, and so on...

Let me clarify, then I will bow out of this conversation...

I was the one who used the term "Watered Down" and it was not based on Mr. Hayes ability, or the fact he teaches Toshindo AND bujinkan (if he still does teach Bujinkan, I dont know that or not, its been said here, so I will agree he does)

I used the term "Watered Down" to describe the method of teaching pre-existing TKD schools to teach Toshindo in a series of short seminars and then giving teaching rank to those instructors. In the Bujinkan it takes years to become an instructor, if Toshindo only takes a couple months, and is based on the "Distilled" teachings of the Bujinkan, MY PERSONAL OPINION is that in this case Distilled means Watered down. It doesn't affect his (Mr Hayes) skill, or ability to teach, but I think it might affect the quality of some, if not all, of the teachers he produces that way.

Personally, and again it is just my opinion, I don't think regardless of how many useless techniques/ideas/principles you remove from an art, that a practitoner can become a master in 6 months... let alone over the course of a few simple seminars. But that's my opinion. If you look back to my ORIGINAL post, I gave a lot of Credit to Mr Hayes, I just disagreed with his commercialization of the art. But again, thats one man's opinion, everyone feels differently about these things. Hatsumi Sensei said not to use the teachings of the Bujinkan for Personal Profit... so I won't profit from them. If others choose to, including Mr Hayes, that's their choice.

 

[r.severe]

Saying Hayes shihan is not teaching Bujinkan arts... is more or less saying I do not teach Bujinkan arts as well.

Not true.

If you are experienced, licensed, and trained in the ryuha, gyokko ryuha, koto ryuha, togakure ryuha, takagi yoshin ryuha, kukishinden ryuha, and shinden fudo ryuha... and teaching them as your methodology or part of the methodology.... correctly... then.. you are in fact teaching the Bujinkan arts... (also known as Hatsumi ryu...)
Forget about the license and experience and being trained for a second...
Hayes shihan training DVD series proves this without any question... as well as I can prove it if you view a class here.

This is totally a silly thread.. to say Hayes shihan is not park of or not teaching Bujinkan arts..

Just because he calls it Toshindo.. or I call it kamiyama Dojo...
What difference does that really mean?
We are both license to do so..

What else can be said?

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Tgace]

http://www.quest-l.com/collection/teaching.php

Teaching Authentic Ninjutsu?
I realize that it is not the kind of thing some people really want to hear, but one of several reasons that I stopped teaching stealth and "sneaky" survival courses after the 1980s was that I had tended to attract a lot of people with some major social and psychological defects as a result of being "the ninja guy" who dominated the martial arts media of the 1980s.

It seems that a lot of people who are attracted to creepy things are... ...well, kind of creepy.

Maybe someday I will write a small book about all the unbelievable but very true adventures I had with creepy people who abandoned their families, stormed out on dads who warned them that they were losers, and hugged their fantasy novels (in the Carlos Castaneda and Hobbit days of 20 years ago) to move to Dayton and "be a ninja".

And of course, with all of the penniless "dustballs" hanging around my scene, all of the real producers and influential people of society stayed away from what must have looked like a cult of weird outcasts.

I went somewhat underground in the late 1980s, leaving the media scene and doing things in protective services that allowed me to test out and explore what I had learned, and what it was that real people seemed to need most in life.

When I re-emerged in the mid 1990s, I realized that Hatsumi Sensei knew what he was saying when he urged me to withhold most of the ninja material that I had been taught as a student in Japan in the 1970s. Yes, there was a good reason that Hatsumi Sensei changed the gi fronts from NIN to BUJIN when all the books in America (sorry!) forced him to open the dojo to the public in the early 1980s.

We offered To-Shin Do as "self defense and self-development" when I came back to the public in 1996, and I am delighted with the caliber (and number) of people that are now a part of my life.

I was just extremely fortunate to have been there at the right time to have been taught authentic ninjutsu. Actually, my first 3 degree certificates were in Togakure ryu, not Bujinkan Dojo martial arts. As it turned out, I was there for the years when Sensei was verifying what he had been taught by his teacher. I was lucky, in that I got to learn the real ninjutsu (without the creepy people around!) that Hatsumi Sensei has been working for almost 20 years now to put back in the shadows.

That said, it seems that there is considerable demand from good Quest Center people for actual training in the stealth aspects of what is the root art of To-Shin Do.

Let me work on putting together a workshop and some curriculum elements that can be practiced after the workshop is over, and I will discretely get word out to the Quest Center students and persons who are in sympathy with what we are doing.

This will take quite a bit of time to arrange (do not look for the seminar in the next few months - maybe not even in 2001), and I will warn you many times before you get to the training grounds that real ninjutsu mind and invisibility training is probably not anything at all like what most 1980s movie-goers might expect.

- Stephen K. Hayes

 

[Cruentus]

Nice post Tom.

Yea...I could just picture all the "ninja nerds" flocking like Sheep to Dayton. Pretty funny. I was a "ninja nerd" (with no experience other then TKD and my Ninja books) from about 7 to 11 years old! :uhyeah:

 

[Tgace]

Nice post Tom.

Yea...I could just picture all the "ninja nerds" flocking like Sheep to Dayton. Pretty funny. I was a "ninja nerd" (with no experience other then TKD and my Ninja books) from about 7 to 11 years old! :uhyeah:

that struck a chord with my "ninja" craze days...so much so I stared another thread on it.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14854

 

[Elizium]

From the last post placed, Hayes is right. It does attract the nutcases who want to learn how to climb trees, steal their way into castles and murder the Shogun while still looking mysterious.


Some years ago, while training in Wakefield, one guy came up looking for the mystical stereotypical ninja assasin. He walked in to the centre manager front area claimg to be a Shinobi womething or other in a Itchimonji walking stance. To the centre owner he was a joker looking for the mystical. when shown the room we were training in he ws in for a shock. What he got was a American Football Kicker, a homeopath practitioner, load of workers in the blue collar sector, young people wanting to learn a MA to accompany their own style (cross train). What the guy ws looking for was a room full of masked people trying to kill each other, not people sat around talking or training discussing the weeks events. :sadsong:

To me ToShinDo and Bijunkan are, in my view, different. I have not seen ToShinDo and is blind to what the system is all about. If anyone can give me a page link to learm more I would be grateful. But if ToShinDo is the same as Taijutsu, then what is the problem? It is the same in my eye. Hayes is Hayes and he can teach whatever he wishes. He could teach total rubbish like Kim and pass it off as something unique. Mr. Severe could teach whatever he wishes, maybe call it bullSheeto, and pass it off as unique.

Hayes is, and has been said in this thread, still Bujinkan. Until he says differently, the context of the thread will be self defeating.

 

[Cruentus]

From the last post placed, Hayes is right. It does attract the nutcases who want to learn how to climb trees, steal their way into castles and murder the Shogun while still looking mysterious.

Are you telling me that I can't learn to storm the castle. Dammit...what if I have to kill the shogun? You just never know! :boing2:

 

[Flatlander]

The Shogun may be my nemesis...(looks over shoulder) whispers "storm the castle Paul, kill him before he gets me...":jediduel:

 

[Shogun]

what if I have to kill the shogun? You just never know!

Is that a threat?........? lol.

 

[Flatlander]

OOPS! Sorry dude! Didn't even know there was a Shogun! (extends hand and bows head) Hi. I'm Flatlander.

 

[Cruentus]

OOPS! Sorry dude! Didn't even know there was a Shogun! (extends hand and bows head) Hi. I'm Flatlander.

*Whispers* That's it...distract the Shogun....I am storming the castle as we speak! :lol:

 

[Flatlander]

:rofl: Oh man! I work in a mall kiosk. I just burst out laughing uncontrollably! I'm still snorting. Oh boy. That was damn good.:rofl:

 

[Shogun]

*Whispers* That's it...distract the Shogun....I am storming the castle as we speak!

I heard that!

 

[Elizium]

Right then... after three...



1....



2.....