Not to be taken down

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not to be taken down is important. But how to train it? Your thought?

 

[lklawson]

But how to train it? Your thought?

You learn how to do it yourself, learn the counters, and then regularly work with people trying to do it to you while you try to do it to them, both of you doing the counters.

It's a physical skill. It needs training and practice.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Kirk saved me the trouble of typing.

 

[Danny T]

You learn how to do it yourself, learn the counters, and then regularly work with people trying to do it to you while you try to do it to them, both of you doing the counters.

It's a physical skill. It needs training and practice.

^^^^^^^^ Yep.

And in the video...take note the wc guy changed his rear hand position after getting punched several times over his lower guard. That is learning. Unfortunate for him he had not learn it prior to fighting this guy. Now he may also start learning how not to get taken down.

 

[jobo]

Not to be taken down is important. But how to train it? Your thought?

with that much of a weight/ strength disadvantage, there not that much you can do, to be honest.

he was doing ok at the punching and was rag dolled in the clinches, put,25lb on and lift some big weights and it might be a more even contest

 

[Martial D]

with that much of a weight/ strength disadvantage, there not that much you can do, to be honest.

he was doing ok at the punching and was rag dolled in the clinches, put,25lb on and lift some big weights and it might be a more even contest

Or he could learn BJJ. Whatever.

 

[Anarax]

Not to be taken down is important. But how to train it? Your thought?

The ref's dive at 1:05 is spectacular!!!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Or he could learn BJJ. Whatever.

The idea of "Not to be taken down" and "BJJ let's play the ground game strategy" seems to be contradict to each other.

A: Why didn't you resist when I take you down?
B: Why should I? The ground is my game.

 

[JR 137]

What @lklawson said.

The Wing Chun guy in the video looked like he’s never fought anyone with any decent takedown skills. And he looks like he hasn’t punched or kicked anything more than the air or maybe some pads. Hard to explain, but there’s no real power nor weight behind his strikes; it seems like there’s no real intent.

 

[JR 137]

with that much of a weight/ strength disadvantage, there not that much you can do, to be honest.

he was doing ok at the punching and was rag dolled in the clinches, put,25lb on and lift some big weights and it might be a more even contest

That would help somewhat. But watch him as the fight goes on. He’s leaning forward more and more, both lowering his guard and throwing his center of gravity off. The more he leans, the easier it is to dump him by pulling him forward. Being stronger will help, but it won’t be a cure if he’s going to do that. A good takedown fighter will just exploit it with a few modifications and/or different takedowns.

The best way to learn to avoid being thrown around and taken down is to train with people who actually know how to do it to you. Learning how to do it against people who are also trying to do it to you teaches you far better than anything else. None of that anti-grappling crap I see around the net that middle school wrestlers with a few weeks of training could make look stupid.

Want to learn how to beat a boxer? Bring in a good boxer to spar with. Want to learn how to beat a good kicker? Bring in a good kicker to spar with. The list goes on and on. A partner who does what you do but watched a few videos on something else and tried to copy it doesn’t prepare you very well for someone who’s good at what they do.

 

[_Simon_]

The idea of "Not to be taken down" and "BJJ let's play the ground game strategy" seems to be contradict to each other.

A: Why didn't you resist when I take you down?
B: Why should I? The ground is my game.

Ohhhhhh my goodness....... I just laughed like I haven't laughed in a very very long time at that GIF... I'm talking actual tears running down my face, and not being able to get through watching it without breaking down with uncontrollable laughter.... that is absolutely priceless hahahahahaha XDXDXD

THANK YOU Kung Fu Wang

... Aaaand carry on with the thread... XD

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That would help somewhat. But watch him as the fight goes on. He’s leaning forward more and more, both lowering his guard and throwing his center of gravity off. The more he leans, the easier it is to dump him by pulling him forward. Being stronger will help, but it won’t be a cure if he’s going to do that. A good takedown fighter will just exploit it with a few modifications and/or different takedowns.

The best way to learn to avoid being thrown around and taken down is to train with people who actually know how to do it to you. Learning how to do it against people who are also trying to do it to you teaches you far better than anything else. None of that anti-grappling crap I see around the net that middle school wrestlers with a few weeks of training could make look stupid.

Want to learn how to beat a boxer? Bring in a good boxer to spar with. Want to learn how to beat a good kicker? Bring in a good kicker to spar with. The list goes on and on. A partner who does what you do but watched a few videos on something else and tried to copy it doesn’t prepare you very well for someone who’s good at what they do.

A lot of the anti-grappling stuff also tends to suffer from attacker paralysis syndrome (APS). The "attacker" brings a single attack (shoot for the double-leg, perhaps), and once contact is made simply stops attacking and allows the defense. Even an unskilled person who continues to try to take you down will improve upon that.

My approach to developing takedown defense involves training counters, partner grappling (randori/sparring), and occasionally playing defense-only. So, your partner is trying to take you down, and you're not allowed to take them down - your only job (without running away or hitting) is to stymie their takedown.

 

[drop bear]

Here is a drill we do. But it takes 3 or more people.

One guy is worked on the pads while you have a third guy just takes him down randomly.

So you get a bit of punchy punchy and some sprawly sprawly at the same time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is a drill we do. But it takes 3 or more people.

One guy is worked on the pads while you have a third guy just takes him down randomly.

So you get a bit of punchy punchy and some sprawly sprawly at the same time.

I just had a "not now, Cato, you fool!" image in my head.

In all seriousness, is the objective to resist the takedown, or to counter it into something? Or does that vary?

 

[oftheherd1]

A lot of the anti-grappling stuff also tends to suffer from attacker paralysis syndrome (APS). The "attacker" brings a single attack (shoot for the double-leg, perhaps), and once contact is made simply stops attacking and allows the defense. Even an unskilled person who continues to try to take you down will improve upon that.

My approach to developing takedown defense involves training counters, partner grappling (randori/sparring), and occasionally playing defense-only. So, your partner is trying to take you down, and you're not allowed to take them down - your only job (without running away or hitting) is to stymie their takedown.

I like the idea in general. But imho, it is unrealistic outside limiting rules for a rule based sport, to only try to defend without backing up, hitting, grappling, etc. Maybe at the beginning of learning to gain confidence it can be done, then add more effective techniques.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I like the idea in general. But imho, it is unrealistic outside limiting rules for a rule based sport, to only try to defend without backing up, hitting, grappling, etc. Maybe at the beginning of learning to gain confidence it can be done, then add more effective techniques.

It is mostly for that purpose. It takes away some tools to force them (and me) to do a better job with sprawling, controlling their head, etc. When you plug the rest of the tools back in, they become more effective, because of the platform this helps build. It also highlights some of the compromises we have to make. You can't sprawl without putting your head forward, that I know of.

 

[Martial D]

The idea of "Not to be taken down" and "BJJ let's play the ground game strategy" seems to be contradict to each other.

A: Why didn't you resist when I take you down?
B: Why should I? The ground is my game.

Context. I was replying to what jobo said vis a vis "theres nothing you can do if you're smaller"

With that said though, it going to be much harder to get an unwilling bjj man to the ground than someone without grappling training.

 

[JR 137]

Context. I was replying to what jobo said vis a vis "theres nothing you can do if you're smaller"

With that said though, it going to be much harder to get an unwilling bjj man to the ground than someone without grappling training.

Why are a lot of BJJ guys cross-training in wrestling? Takedowns and avoiding being taken down. They saw a gap and they’re filling it. Others should follow suit in actually learning what’s consistently beating them rather than trying to mimic something and coming up with a response against severely flawed techniques. Watching the anti-grappling garbage out there, it becomes painfully obvious that the people developing an entire subset of techniques developed them by having a person with zero realistic experience come at them. If they’re going to develop this stuff, and good on them for at least trying, they need to bring in someone who actually knows what they’re doing. If I were strictly a judoka, I wouldn’t bring in another judoka to punch and kick at me while I was trying to develop a punch and kick defense subset. If I’m developing a subset to address Muay Thai striking, I bring in a competent MT guy, not another judoka who’s watched a few videos.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Context. I was replying to what jobo said vis a vis "theres nothing you can do if you're smaller"

With that said though, it going to be much harder to get an unwilling bjj man to the ground than someone without grappling training.

Agreed, depending upon their training. Probably more so for a Judoka or wrestler.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why are a lot of BJJ guys cross-training in wrestling? Takedowns and avoiding being taken down. They saw a gap and they’re filling it. Others should follow suit in actually learning what’s consistently beating them rather than trying to mimic something and coming up with a response against severely flawed techniques. Watching the anti-grappling garbage out there, it becomes painfully obvious that the people developing an entire subset of techniques developed them by having a person with zero realistic experience come at them. If they’re going to develop this stuff, and good on them for at least trying, they need to bring in someone who actually knows what they’re doing. If I were strictly a judoka, I wouldn’t bring in another judoka to punch and kick at me while I was trying to develop a punch and kick defense subset. If I’m developing a subset to address Muay Thai striking, I bring in a competent MT guy, not another judoka who’s watched a few videos.

One of the reasons I'd like to grow my program is that I'd like to be able to bring in some outside folks to improve defense in some areas. Bring in a wrestler to teach a few classes on takedowns and (especially) defense against it. Improving their takedowns beyond what I can teach would have a significant impact on their defense. Same for bringing in a boxer. Might be able to get all of that from one person if I find the right MMAer. But it's hardly worth it to them if I only have a couple of students at a time.