No style

[Kung Fu Wang]

One technique existing across styles doesn’t invalidate the concept of styles.

What's the difference between the CMA side kick and the TKD side kick?

IMO, the difference is the trade off.

- CMA side kick use the shortest path for speed.
- TKD side kick use the complete path for power.

What's the difference between the long fist punch and the WC punch?

IMO, the difference is also the trade off.

- long fist punch uses 180 degree arm and shoulder angle for maximum power and maximum reach.
- WC punch uses 90 degree arm and shoulder angle so the 2nd punch can come out faster after the 1st punch (less distance to travel).​

We can just consider that any MA style can use technique differently when different require is needed. The trade off doesn't have to be between styles. It can be in the same style.

- A long fist jumping front kick without kicking the leg out is exactly the same as the MT flying knee.
- A long fist 360 degree backward ground sweep is exactly the same as the TKD spin hook kick if the sweep is done in the air and on the head level.

 

[wab25]

I cannot do a spin hook kick... but I can counter it, a lot of different ways. Many of those counters take advantage of the guy doing the kick, spinning on one leg. I don't have to be able to do that kick, to know the weakness is the time for it come around and that you are on one foot.

You should watch some UFC fights, or Bellator fights, or Pride fights, or Strikeforce fights... they are full of examples of fighters countering moves that they cannot do themselves. Some are quite good at countering moves that they cannot do.

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

I'd say styles are less about the technique and more about the frame of mind. Case in point, Aikido vs. Japanese Jiu Jitsu. Many, if not all, of the techniques are virtually identical... The difference lies in the intention. Jiu Jitsu is fine with breaks, chokeholds, and other very nasty things, Aikido, as an entity, is much less so. On a similar note, I know how to do sweeps, but they generally aren't in my repertoire, because my arts never really emphasized them... Capability is there, but general inclusion in my thought process is not.

 

[pdg]

What's the difference between the CMA side kick and the TKD side kick?

IMO, the difference is the trade off.

- CMA side kick use the shortest path for speed.
- TKD side kick use the complete path for power.

Firstly, which TKD?

If the one I'm learning, then which side kick, performed with which leg and from which position?

Some are faster than others, some have more power, and there are also a variety of targets.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'd say styles are less about the technique and more about the frame of mind. Case in point, Aikido vs. Japanese Jiu Jitsu. Many, if not all, of the techniques are virtually identical... The difference lies in the intention. Jiu Jitsu is fine with breaks, chokeholds, and other very nasty things, Aikido, as an entity, is much less so. On a similar note, I know how to do sweeps, but they generally aren't in my repertoire, because my arts never really emphasized them... Capability is there, but general inclusion in my thought process is not.

You may learn programming language

- C++ from C++ class,
- Java from Java class,
- ...

You can also go to a "no style" class that teach you all the programming language.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Firstly, which TKD?

If the one I'm learning, then which side kick, performed with which leg and from which position?

Some are faster than others, some have more power, and there are also a variety of targets.

It's still just trade off. If we agree with the trade off, the style will have no meaning.

- My style do side kick this way because ...
- Your style do side kick that way because ...

The difference is "because". the difference is not "style".

 

[pdg]

It's still just trade off. If we agree with the trade off, the style will have no meaning.

- My style do side kick this way because ...
- Your style do side kick that way because ...

The difference is "because". the difference is not "style".

If your style only does one side kick in one way then yes, it's definitely better to look outside the style.

Whereas - my style does side kicks in many ways because one just isn't enough to cover every eventuality.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If your style only does one side kick in one way then yes, it's definitely better to look outside the style.

Whereas - my style does side kicks in many ways because one just isn't enough to cover every eventuality.

If your style does side kick in many ways and my style also does side kick in many ways then what's the difference between your style and my style?

How many different ways can a side kick been done? Can we record all possible side kicks in computer database?

 

[wab25]

You may learn programming language

- C++ from C++ class,
- Java from Java class,
- ...

You can also go to a "no style" class that teach you all the programming language.

First, that class is not possible... there are too many languages. Second, going to that class will absolutely not give you any kind of coding skill that you could use professionally. I say that with over 20 years of professional coding experience, including interviewing and hiring many programmers. Knowing the instructions is not the same as knowing how to engineer software... even if you know how to write a for loop in every language.

 

[Martial D]

Or - if you like a certain style and it fits what you want to play, what's the point in forcing yourself out of it?

If you don't mind being limited to only the notes, chord progressions, not to mention a comparitively tiny repertoire of compositions, then nothing.

But when it comes time to jam with the band you will be far more limited as to what you can follow and and the range of sounds you can make than a pianist that is also trained in jazz and rock n roll.

If you are comfortable setting limits and barriers for yourself, that's between you and your piano.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you can do

- flying side kick,
- flying knee,
- tornado kick,
- spin hook kick,
- ...

but I can't. There is no way that I can accept that. If I can't do a certain technique, I may not know how to counter it.

And someone who only wants to play jazz guitar may not know how to perform some hard rock licks. That's only a problem if they want to be able to do so.

 

[pdg]

If you don't mind being limited to only the notes, chord progressions, not to mention a comparitively tiny repertoire of compositions, then nothing.

But when it comes time to jam with the band you will be far more limited as to what you can follow and and the range of sounds you can make than a pianist that is also trained in jazz and rock n roll.

If you are comfortable setting limits and barriers for yourself, that's between you and your piano.

But sticking to a genre (style) you enjoy isn't the same as only learning the pieces from one composer.

It's kind of like how most pianists who can read music can go outside their favoured style and play a piece technically correctly - but it'll have an entirely different feel compared to another that likes that style. They'll lack the soul.

And if they get off on rock and roll, they'll jam just fine - but stick them in an improv jazz ensemble and the lack of interest in the style will mean they're just not there.

In much the same way, I could probably go into a class of another MA and kind of get by. I could probably do a fair bit of it reasonably well but without the interest afforded by liking a surrounding style I'm not going to be as good as I could be.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And someone who only wants to play jazz guitar may not know how to perform some hard rock licks. That's only a problem if they want to be able to do so.

I don't train Judo. But if I can find a throw in Judo that I don't know how to do, I will think my throwing art training is not complete.

I also don't train TKD. But if I can find a kick in TKD that I don't know how to do, I will think my kicking skill training is not complete.

If we can find teachers from all MA styles. Ask them to write a book about their style. We then combine all their books into 1 book, we can name that 1 book as "No Style".

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

First, that class is not possible... there are too many languages. Second, going to that class will absolutely not give you any kind of coding skill that you could use professionally. I say that with over 20 years of professional coding experience, including interviewing and hiring many programmers. Knowing the instructions is not the same as knowing how to engineer software... even if you know how to write a for loop in every language.

There actually are classes that teach kind of what john is saying. They don't teach a specific language, instead they teach programming "thought", and the basic things that exist in each language.

That said, it's not really a good analogy here, because you still need to take courses in an actual language to put that to use. It's like an ultra-beginners class. The equivalent here would probably be like learning the basics of striking/theory before deciding to take muay thai or wing chun or tkd. And the effectiveness of that beginning class is debatable.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think what @Kung Fu Wang is saying has merit-theoretically there is only so many ways to move a body, and if you were to learn all of that why bother claiming it as one style or another.

The issue is that to truly get good at each subsection of martial arts takes time, so let's say each takes 20 years, and you could come up with 10 different sections for that (punching, kicking, throwing, submitting, melee weapons, ranged weapons, guns, combining punching with kicking, combining throwing with submitting, combining throwing with kicking, etc.). So it will take 200 years for you to learn all of the information in "no style". Or you can take a style that already organized a bunch of that info together, even two or three of those styles, and now you can learn that stuff in a coherent manner, and it takes 20-60 years.

If you do three styles, you can then rearrange/organize them in a different way if you like, focusing on what you find important/synergistic, and someone else can learn that in 20 years. But if you just throw everything at someone, they don't have 200 years to learn all of "no style".

 

[Martial D]

But sticking to a genre (style) you enjoy isn't the same as only learning the pieces from one composer.

It's kind of like how most pianists who can read music can go outside their favoured style and play a piece technically correctly - but it'll have an entirely different feel compared to another that likes that style. They'll lack the soul.

And if they get off on rock and roll, they'll jam just fine - but stick them in an improv jazz ensemble and the lack of interest in the style will mean they're just not there.

In much the same way, I could probably go into a class of another MA and kind of get by. I could probably do a fair bit of it reasonably well but without the interest afforded by liking a surrounding style I'm not going to be as good as I could be.

In this analogy the genre would be a type of style, like say traditional gi and kata striking or Chinese martial arts, or submission wrestling (BJJ, sambo, lucha livre, judo, etc).

If you are good at one, say, gi and kata striking style(let's say a karate variant), you will probably be more able to adapt to another variant of karate or tkd than someone without that experience. With that I can agree.

But

If you become good at several variants within this genre, or even all of them, you will certainly be prepared for more situations and have a more diverse lexicon of options than someone that has only ever done one variant.

And THAT guy will be less prepared than the guy that has also gained proficiency outside that genre(the karate guy that learns to wrestle).

 

[Flying Crane]

You may learn programming language

- C++ from C++ class,
- Java from Java class,
- ...

You can also go to a "no style" class that teach you all the programming language.

Is there a school that teaches such a class?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is there a school that teaches such a class?

The formless Sanda class may be similar to that.

 

[Flying Crane]

The formless Sanda class may be similar to that.

No, I’m asking about the hypothetical programming class. Is it taught? Anywhere? And why not? Because it isn’t a path to learn real, useable skills. It might compile a lot of information, but without the context for it to be meaningful.

 

[Gweilo]

but I can't. There is no way that I can accept that. If I can't do a certain technique, I may not know how to counter it.

I really liked this quote, the more we learn about movement, the more likely we are going to recognise it, the better the chances of avoiding, or countering, especially in knife defense.