Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

[wab25]

I learn more when I find someone (from whatever style) who can beat me up.

I must have learned and continue to learn an awful lot...

 

[Hanzou]

So, if a BJJ school rolled up on a Boxing club, and got their tucuses handed to them in the boxing ring, would that lower your opinion of BJJ? More to the point of this thread, if a BJJ practitioner entered a boxing match and got seriously out boxed, would that mean that BJJ black belts are worthless?
Or would you think that was good for the BJJ practitioner to get out and get some experience in a new area.

The difference being that Bjjers don't box, but Ninjutsu does contain throws and grappling.

Lets be honest about the video in the OP for a minute. Yes, it showed a BJJ guy completely dominating some Ninjutsu black belt. So this BJJ phenom found probably the smallest grappling contest around, put on by people that are not experienced in grappling and looked good. I am sure the Mayweather would look great if he showed up at the Boys and Girls Club boxing tournament.

Again, there IS throwing and grappling in Ninjutsu.

I look at this type of thing, as these arts are trying to expand into new areas and evolve. In this instance they are trying to add grappling and ground fighting. Isn't this what you are advocating?

Only if they admit where they got their stuff from.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Again, there IS throwing and grappling in Ninjutsu.

I assume Ninjutsu uses the self-defense approach and not the "sport" approach.

The issue is not the style but the mat time. If I wrestle 15 rounds daily and you only wrestle 2 times weekly, you won't have any chance to wrestle against me.

Many MA systems claim to have throwing in their system. But the throwing skill can only be developed through the "sport' environment. I don't believe the self-defense environment can be used to develop the throwing skill.

 

[Hanzou]

I assume Ninjutsu uses the self-defense approach and not the "sport" approach.

The issue is not the style but the mat time. If I wrestle 15 rounds daily and you only wrestle 2 times weekly, you won't have any chance to wrestle against me.

Many MA systems claim to have throwing in their system. But the throwing skill can only be developed through the "sport' environment. I don't believe the self-defense environment can be used to develop the throwing skill.

Now that is an interesting argument....

Let's expand this to general Japanese/Traditional Jiujitsu as a whole; Would you then argue that JJJ/TJJ throwing and grappling isn't close (effective-wise) to their descendant arts (Judo and Bjj)?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Now that is an interesting argument....

Let's expand this to general Japanese/Traditional Jiujitsu as a whole; Would you then argue that JJJ/TJJ throwing and grappling isn't close (effective-wise) to their descendant arts (Judo and Bjj)?

Sport environment doesn't necessarily mean sanctioned sport. I can't speak to JJJ, but there's not a whole lot of Sambo competitions near me. However, about 1-1.5 hours each class/after class was spent in some combination of sparring, randori, rolling, or all 3 in one. The people there did not compete (some had in the past, but not all), and didn't follow any set competition rules like NAGA or olympic judo, but they could definitely use their skills effectively if they needed.

I would agree that without resistance though, throwing and grappling aren't effective, even if the techniques are taught perfectly. But if a JJJ school has regular grappling and legitimate resistance training, there's no reason it shouldn't be effective.

 

[Hanzou]

Sport environment doesn't necessarily mean sanctioned sport. I can't speak to JJJ, but there's not a whole lot of Sambo competitions near me. However, about 1-1.5 hours each class/after class was spent in some combination of sparring, randori, rolling, or all 3 in one. The people there did not compete (some had in the past, but not all), and didn't follow any set competition rules like NAGA or olympic judo, but they could definitely use their skills effectively if they needed.

I would agree that without resistance though, throwing and grappling aren't effective, even if the techniques are taught perfectly. But if a JJJ school has regular grappling and legitimate resistance training, there's no reason it shouldn't be effective.

So as a form of JJJ, what's the problem with a Ninjutsu exponent entering a grappling tournament if they received proper training in their art? It certainly isn't akin to a wrestler entering a boxing tournament and not being allowed to wrestle right?

Here's some Ninja throws from the Bujinkan:

Perfectly legal in a grappling tournament.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So as a form of JJJ, what's the problem with a Ninjutsu exponent entering a grappling tournament if they received proper training in their art? It certainly isn't akin to a wrestler entering a boxing tournament and not being allowed to wrestle right?

If ninjutsu includes grappling, and he receives 'proper training', then there shouldn't be an issue IMO. But we don't know if he received 'proper' training, assuming that includes a competitive grappling focus.

And I'm not too familiar with ninjutsu, but I believe (hoping someone will correct me if I'm wrong), its about a third grappling. So to reach the same level of proficiency in grappling they would have to have 3 times the experience. So if the blue belt has 3-4 years experience, the ninjutsu guy would need 9-12 years experience.

A better comparison IMO (I wasn't the one who stated the original comparison), would be when an MMA fighter, who trained at an 'MMA gym', goes to a boxing tournament and loses to a boxer. Doesn't mean the MMA fighter is bad, or that MMA is bad, but when you limit his other weapons/techniques, and none of the boxers, it gives the boxer a pretty big edge.

 

[Hanzou]

If ninjutsu includes grappling, and he receives 'proper training', then there shouldn't be an issue IMO. But we don't know if he received 'proper' training, assuming that includes a competitive grappling focus.

So in your opinion, what would be "proper training"?

And I'm not too familiar with ninjutsu, but I believe (hoping someone will correct me if I'm wrong), its about a third grappling. So to reach the same level of proficiency in grappling they would have to have 3 times the experience. So if the blue belt has 3-4 years experience, the ninjutsu guy would need 9-12 years experience.

Eh, that's not really a fair comparison either because there's older schools of Bjj (usually Gjj) that are loaded with old-school self defense stuff which heavily resembles stuff you'd find in a traditional JJJ school, and a significant chunk of training time is devoted towards learning that stuff.

However, I will agree that Ninjutsu training seems a bit scatter-brained, with a little bit of everything stuffed within it.

A better comparison IMO (I wasn't the one who stated the original comparison), would be when an MMA fighter, who trained at an 'MMA gym', goes to a boxing tournament and loses to a boxer. Doesn't mean the MMA fighter is bad, or that MMA is bad, but when you limit his other weapons/techniques, and none of the boxers, it gives the boxer a pretty big edge.

My issue with that comparison is that a MMA fighter will clearly be at a substantial disadvantage in that scenario to the point where the results would be completely different if they were operating in a more open ruleset.

In the case of Ninjutsu vs. Bjj, I'm rather confident that the results would have ended up being exactly the same even with a more open ruleset (minus weapons of course). It isn't the rules giving the Bjjer the advantage, it's the training model.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Now that is an interesting argument....

Let's expand this to general Japanese/Traditional Jiujitsu as a whole; Would you then argue that JJJ/TJJ throwing and grappling isn't close (effective-wise) to their descendant arts (Judo and Bjj)?

Besides the throwing skill, the "sport" environment can help you to develop the shaking force. If you have that, you can shake your opponent in such a way that you can cancel out his force during the initial stage.

IMO, this shaking force can only be developed through the "sport" environment. In other words, you need to let your opponent to move in anyway he wants to (not any pre-defined pattern), so you can test your shaking in all different kind of situations.

 

[Martial D]

I know it's nothing new, and it's not restricted to bjj at all.

Doesn't make it reasonable.

When it's the pioneers of an art doing it, it's slightly more understandable (still not reasonable) - but a few generations later it gets excessively stupid.

Just like how your insistence that everyone would do the same if they could - it's not only unreasonable, it's wrong.

Not everyone has such a pathetic mindset.

I really don't get people like you.

In every single field of human activity there is innovation. We know when an innovation is a net possitive by testing it in it's contextual environment.

Whether that means you are beta testing new software, building a better mouse trap or training to defeat other human beings in some form of combat, it's all the same.

The best software wins the market share, the best mouse trap fills the shelves, while the less effective versions get swallowed into antiquity.

Yet we are supposed to exempt that last example, as if the market didn't exist, as if innovation isn't happening. This is an attitude that only yields stagnation, and such stagnation only further widens the gap between what is being innovated and what is being left behind.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So as a form of JJJ, what's the problem with a Ninjutsu exponent entering a grappling tournament if they received proper training in their art? It certainly isn't akin to a wrestler entering a boxing tournament and not being allowed to wrestle right?

Here's some Ninja throws from the Bujinkan:

Perfectly legal in a grappling tournament.

Didn't see the video for some reason when I initially replied. Will watch it later, may change some of my replies based on it.

 

[Hanzou]

Didn't see the video for some reason when I initially replied. Will watch it later, may change some of my replies based on it.

Yeah, here's a list:

Nage Waza Bujinkan Black Belt Body Throws

I counted 32 throws (some of those are Judo throws).

Also here's some submissions:

In a grappling match, you can throw someone and submit them and win the match.

 

[pdg]

I really don't get people like you.

In every single field of human activity there is innovation. We know when an innovation is a net possitive by testing it in it's contextual environment.

Whether that means you are beta testing new software, building a better mouse trap or training to defeat other human beings in some form of combat, it's all the same.

The best software wins the market share, the best mouse trap fills the shelves, while the less effective versions get swallowed into antiquity.

Yet we are supposed to exempt that last example, as if the market didn't exist, as if innovation isn't happening. This is an attitude that only yields stagnation, and such stagnation only further widens the gap between what is being innovated and what is being left behind.

I can tell you really don't get me...

I have nothing against innovation.

I have nothing against development.

I have nothing against testing one thing against another to verify that the innovation and development has led to something "better".


What I don't support is loudly proclaiming that everything else is crap.

I can develop my application of tkd - I do a fair few things that nobody else in my club, or visitors from other clubs, have seen before (mainly stealing techs from other arts ). I test it in sparring against those people - sometimes it works better, sometimes it fails abysmally - but that's development for you.

What I don't do is then tell everyone else that what they're doing is wrong and a waste of time, because that's childish and stupid.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, here's a list:

Nage Waza Bujinkan Black Belt Body Throws

I counted 32 throws (some of those are Judo throws).

Also here's some submissions:

In a grappling match, you can throw someone and submit them and win the match.

Im waiting until i get off work to watch both of those and reply to your other comment. But probably wont happen until midnight tonight (est) or tomorrow, depending on how tired i am after work

 

[drop bear]

I can tell you really don't get me...

I have nothing against innovation.

I have nothing against development.

I have nothing against testing one thing against another to verify that the innovation and development has led to something "better".


What I don't support is loudly proclaiming that everything else is crap.

I can develop my application of tkd - I do a fair few things that nobody else in my club, or visitors from other clubs, have seen before (mainly stealing techs from other arts ). I test it in sparring against those people - sometimes it works better, sometimes it fails abysmally - but that's development for you.

What I don't do is then tell everyone else that what they're doing is wrong and a waste of time, because that's childish and stupid.

The medical profession does it. They loudly proclaim treatments that don't work. Don't work.

 

[pdg]

The medical profession does it. They loudly proclaim treatments that don't work. Don't work.

In some cases they have the backing of things like evidence. They can actually cite verifiable reasons as to why they don't work instead of just using personal opinion.

The topic at hand is more like drug companies falsifying studies on a competitor's product, or making large donations to research establishments in return for favourable conclusions.

Or like the tobacco companies voluntarily funding "research" into smoking cessation options offered by other companies.

Or oil companies giving "unbiased" reports on alternative energy.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Unless Jow Ga has some grappling escapes I've never seen before, punching, kicking, and clawing isn't going to cut the mustard.

To be honest there are probably a lot of escapes that you have never seen before. The problem with grappling is that a lot people think they have to be on the ground to do it. Which is why your statement includes "punching, kicking, and clawing" Not once have I spoke about dealing with grappling attempts by an opponent by doing those things. Not once in my sparring videos have you seen me try to punch, kick, or claw my way out of my opponents attempts to grab me."

If you train not to be on the ground then you become good at not trying to be on the ground. BJJ doesn't share that perspective. BJJ embraces the ground, so if your mindset is already like that then you aren't even exploring how not to be on the ground because you are so focused on being on the ground.

To prove my point. How much time does BJJ actually dedicated to not being on the ground and not finishing on the ground? How much time do you spend training not to be on on ground? So it's only natural you wouldn't see that I see in my training. I'm not to be mean but there's nothing silly about my comments.

I train not to be on the ground and I look at multiple perspectives on how not to do that. I also look at multiple perspectives on the reality that if I have to go to the ground, then what comes next? I address questions like:
1. How long do I want to be on the ground?
2. How long can I be on the ground before I'm in serious trouble?
3. Where are my windows of escape both before and after I'm on the ground?
4. What ways are the best ways for me to recover and get back to my feet?
5 How might my opponent try to keep me on the ground and what does he need to do in order to be successful with goal?
6. Which stances put me more at risk for being on the ground?

This is just a small part of what my training includes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think ground game is harder than the stand up game. If you are good in stand up game, you can relax and your opponent will have hard time to take you down. But if you are good in ground game, you can't relax as you do in the stand up game.

I tend to agree with that, though I wonder if that’s only because my stand-up game is stronger than my ground game.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, because the Gracie's are the only martial artists to ever claim that their arts are superior to all others.

I suppose you didn't read some of the descriptions of those Ninja videos I posted. Quite a few describe their ground techniques as something you won't find in "sports or UFC". Implying that what we do is just fun and games, while they do the "real stuff". They aren't the only ones either, so I have no issue being critical of traditional styles who claim they're more effective than styles with a competitive component.

Styles don’t make claims. Some people in styles do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh yes they would. Bruce Lee rolled up on a karate competition to promote his style while dissing traditional karate in the process. Would you consider Bruce Lee "uncivilized"?

Bruce Lee isn’t everyone.