Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

[JowGaWolf]

Everyone else learns tools to get off the ground as fast as possible, or cross train with Bjjers and also embrace fighting on the ground.

I'm not "everyone else." My approach is different from what you are used to seeing.

No offense, but I doubt those principles exist in Jowga.

I've already shown videos of me using the principles that I mentioned, using Jow Ga techniques, so there's not need for me to debate what's in Jow Ga. And I'm not offended. You don't train Jow Ga and you definitely don't train Jow Ga with me so there's no way you can know this. How many Jow Ga practitioners have you seen fight like me?

Every wrong move you make will be capitalized on and will only make your situation worse.

What makes you think that this only applies to them and not to me? If they make a wrong move with me, will I not capitalize on it? This is basic fighting logic. If you screw up the your opponent will make you pay. This is not a ground fighting only logic.

and the fact that you're trying to get to your feet as rapidly as possible with no training is pretty much a fast way to screw yourself over.

This is not a way to screw yourself over. "Getting back to your feet as fast as possible" is not the same as "getting back to your feet right away."

If you have trained with me then you would know this. Any of my students I have train in recovering from the ground can tell you that I have never told them to get to their feet right away. As a matter of fact I have already shown a video of me doing such a drill. A lot of Kung Fu practitioners misunderstand the concept of getting back on their feet as soon as possible. Many make the assumption that it means get back on their feet right away. The reality is that depending on how you fall or land, other techniques may need to be used before getting up. Getting up right away puts a person at risk for being struck while getting up. In terms of grappling, it may mean you are attacked while in a position that prevents you from gaining any structure to deal with the attack.

You want to really avoid the ground? Embrace it and cross-train in Bjj. Unlike your old Kung Fu school, we won't toss you out because you have a fighting spirit.

If I do BJJ then I'm not doing Jow Ga. I have expressed many times that my goal is to be a good representation of Jow Ga Kung Fu so if I'm going to find or use a solution then it's going to have to be within the system. Jow Ga is made of 3 different systems which gives me a lot to work with in terms of finding a solution.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to spar with some of the people from Martial Talk and they can give you their opinion about my abilities and describe what it's like. Not that it's going to change how you are.. lol. I'll be better off trying to grow a tree that creates money. As far as me being kicked out because of my fighting spirit. To be honest, if you have to be kicked out, that's a pretty cool reason to be kicked out. Hey you do kung fu, but we have to kick you out because you focus on fighting too much and not the traditional aspects / rituals. Being the way MMA has been wiping up "kung fu Masters," I would have to say I'm ahead of the game lol.

I can't do it at the moment as I have some other things in the works, but eventually I'll find some cool BJJ guys to spar with and I'll record that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think the issue is you keep just saying stand up. Which is not the same discussion.

I didn't think I had to go into detail like that with you guys. I'm already wordy lol. Try explaining a Jow Ga technique in a way that someone can visualize what you are talking about. It could get very long and wordy, especially with me.

For me the concept of standing up does not mean "Stand up right away" It is a process and like every process there are windows of opportunity that you have to look for. Some times you can get back if you opponent delays his attack instead of press. Other times you have to create an opening because your opponent is waiting for you when you are at your most vulnerable which is the transition stage (the point between starting to get off the ground and gaining a solid stance). To me all of this is the process of standing up as soon as possible, but it's not the same as "standing up right away." Don't be on the ground and try to get up right way, because at that point you may actually be standing up before it's actually possible to stand up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I do BJJ then I'm not doing Jow Ga.

Many years ago, I would feel the same way as you do today. Today, I'm interested in making my "head lock" to tap out my opponent on the ground. I'll need to test it against more true BJJ guys.

SC + BJJ > SC
SC + BJJ > BJJ.

"Stand up right away" .

Do you train something similar to the following?

1. Turn side way.
2. Bend lower leg as close as to your hip as possible.
3. Drop front foot on the ground with toes facing forward.
4. Push both hands on the ground.

When I was young, I had many fancy ways to get back up. I didn't even need to use my hands to push on the ground. Today, my body don't feel like a fish any more.

 

[pdg]

So it it the evidence not the attitude.

It's a bit of both, but the emphasis is on attitude.

Rubbishing what someone else does is not evidence that what you do is better.

Using somebody else's performance isn't really evidence of your own, it's circumstantial at best.

So someone who was a pioneer of an art beat some people and won some stuff - that in no way provides evidence of the system being better or that everyone who practices it is capable of the same level of performance.

There was that video posted recently of a mediocre application of boxing absolutely toying with a bunch of BJJers - if the sentiment of "grappling fundamentally beats all" was true, it would be impossible for that video to exist.

 

[Hanzou]

I can't do it at the moment as I have some other things in the works, but eventually I'll find some cool BJJ guys to spar with and I'll record that.

Good. The sooner you get out of silly territory the better.

 

[Hanzou]

There was that video posted recently of a mediocre application of boxing absolutely toying with a bunch of BJJers - if the sentiment of "grappling fundamentally beats all" was true, it would be impossible for that video to exist.

Yeah, that video doesn't exist. What actually exists is a Bjj upper belt with a boxing background toying with less experienced students.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Many years ago, I would feel the same way as you do today. Today, I'm interested in making my "head lock" to tap out my opponent on the ground. I'll need to test it against more true BJJ guys.

SC + BJJ > SC
SC + BJJ > BJJ.

The thing is that I'm not interested in the the JG + BJJ .> JG
I'm not looking for a greater than or equal to equation. This is what I'm seeking.
If BJ does Technique 1 then what is the correct JG response to BJJ Technique 1.
A. Is it preventive measures?
B. Is it escape measures?
C. Is it attack measures?
D. Is it defense measures?
E. Is it a combination of A-D or a any other combination such as A and B?
F. Does the appropriate measure even exist? Does Hung Gar have an answer? Does Choy Ga have an answer? Does the Shaolin system have an answer?

If I just throw my hands up and make learning BJJ the answer, then I will never take the time to explore the Jow Ga system to that level of understanding. If I lose against BJJ then I get back up, analyze what I'm doing, analyze what my BJJ opponent is doing and figure it out. This is the process that I always take with learning Jow Ga regardless of the system I'm fighting against. So many times I see people just abandon their system and never take the time to figure out the difficult parts. For me I just don't want to be that way.

Don't get me wrong I don't have any problem with learning some BJJ stuff. But in terms of Jow Ga. My equation will always be Jow Ga is sometimes greater, sometimes equal, and sometimes less than my opponent's skill level in his system.

By the way. SC + BJJ > SC is not always true. If you aren't good at BJJ vs SC then you'll lose against SC. If you are better at SC vs SC then you'll win even if you don't know SC. Not every person who takes BJJ is good against strikers. A person who does BJJ may not have enough skill to use it against a striker..

This is also true with Jow Ga. the higher my Jow Ga skill level the better my chance will be to win with Jow Ga.

 

[dunc]

So as a form of JJJ, what's the problem with a Ninjutsu exponent entering a grappling tournament if they received proper training in their art? It certainly isn't akin to a wrestler entering a boxing tournament and not being allowed to wrestle right?

Here's some Ninja throws from the Bujinkan:

Perfectly legal in a grappling tournament.

The Bujinkan has a good amount of standing grappling that could translate into a tournament context

Broadly speaking there are three issues with this:
1 - Whilst many of the throws, takedowns are legal, the set ups are generally "out of context" for a tournament. For example sweeps are exchanged for kicks, strikes are used to break balance for a takedown, the groin and the throat are major targets which change your core grappling posture and so on
2 - Most Bujinkan dojos don't teach/study the technical adjustments needed for a competition
3 - Most Bujinkan dojos don't spar so they don't learn how to deal with resistance

Most people haven't figured out how to cross the divide between efficiency for self defence and pressure training for competition/randori. Instead preferring the comfort of sitting firmly in one camp vs the other

I’d certainly say it. I spent about 7-8 years training in the Bujinkan and my ability to apply the techniques in a real fight was not high. It’s been probably around 25 years since I was seriously involved in the art, but I could probably make much more of it work effectively now due to the my experience in live, resisted training. My BJJ has made my “ninjutsu” (really Bujinkan Taijutsu) much better, and my Bujinkan experience has had some benefits for my Jiu-jitsu.

Kano, who probably understood the dichotomy above, advocated training in both randori and JJJ (or self defence techniques). Over time Judo and BJJ have gravitated towards the randori side of things and the self defence techniques have suffered somewhat as a result. TBH I think a more balanced approach may make sense if folks are advocating BJJ as a good self defence option (which many are) - but this is probably off topic

 

[Martial D]

Yes it is a choice. I can choose where i will try to fight the fight and choose to do everything I can to avoid another's strength. That's always a choice. The thing that isn't a choice is the frequency of success as it varies with each opponent. There is no guarantee that I will go down. There is only a guarantee that I will do what I can not to.

What gets me is that there is this belief that it is impossible to avoid going to the ground and that being put on the ground is 100% guaranteed. To me that is the strangest line of thought.

What makes you think you don't have a choice?

You do have a choice..sort of..to not get grabbed. But, that's not always your choice to make either.

Do you think a completely untrained striker could stand in front of you and stuff all your strikes?

Probably not, and I don't either. That's why it's a skill set. To add to this grappling skills are far less intuitive than striking skills, meaning an untrained grappler is far less likely to instictively react correctly to a double leg(underhook, sprawl) than to an overhand(duck!).

This all becomes self evident on day one of training with skillful grapplers. I say all of this as a guy that is 80% striker 20% grappler with a CMA base.

 

[Martial D]

The thing is that I'm not interested in the the JG + BJJ .> JG
I'm not looking for a greater than or equal to equation. This is what I'm seeking.
If BJ does Technique 1 then what is the correct JG response to BJJ Technique 1.
A. Is it preventive measures?
B. Is it escape measures?
C. Is it attack measures?
D. Is it defense measures?
E. Is it a combination of A-D or a any other combination such as A and B?
F. Does the appropriate measure even exist? Does Hung Gar have an answer? Does Choy Ga have an answer? Does the Shaolin system have an answer?

If I just throw my hands up and make learning BJJ the answer, then I will never take the time to explore the Jow Ga system to that level of understanding. If I lose against BJJ then I get back up, analyze what I'm doing, analyze what my BJJ opponent is doing and figure it out. This is the process that I always take with learning Jow Ga regardless of the system I'm fighting against. So many times I see people just abandon their system and never take the time to figure out the difficult parts. For me I just don't want to be that way.

Don't get me wrong I don't have any problem with learning some BJJ stuff. But in terms of Jow Ga. My equation will always be Jow Ga is sometimes greater, sometimes equal, and sometimes less than my opponent's skill level in his system.

By the way. SC + BJJ > SC is not always true. If you aren't good at BJJ vs SC then you'll lose against SC. If you are better at SC vs SC then you'll win even if you don't know SC. Not every person who takes BJJ is good against strikers. A person who does BJJ may not have enough skill to use it against a striker..

This is also true with Jow Ga. the higher my Jow Ga skill level the better my chance will be to win with Jow Ga.

I dunno man. I understand and can apply WC things because of the perspective offered by MMA training. Sometimes you need to take your toe off the line to step forward.

 

[wab25]

If I just throw my hands up and make learning BJJ the answer, then I will never take the time to explore the Jow Ga system to that level of understanding. If I lose against BJJ then I get back up, analyze what I'm doing, analyze what my BJJ opponent is doing and figure it out. This is the process that I always take with learning Jow Ga regardless of the system I'm fighting against. So many times I see people just abandon their system and never take the time to figure out the difficult parts. For me I just don't want to be that way.

I think we should all be training this way. It shouldn't be about which system is better, but who understands their own system better. I think the lack of this process taking place has lead to the idea that Karate or TKD or Kung Fu having huge holes in their system. I don't believe most of the holes we see in these traditional arts are holes in the arts, but rather holes in the users understanding of the art that they study. It leads to ideas that a down block is a down block... and nothing else. This type of thinking gets people stuck, and they miss whole portions of the art. Then, they get promoted and start teaching people, never knowing about holes they introduced to their art. When you don't put in the time to figure out how an art deals with different tactics, and different strategies... I don't believe you are truly studying that art.

I think practitioners of all arts should be doing this. Adding resistance to your training is one step, the next step is experiencing that resistance from people who train other arts. And if the guy from the other art can't hand you your tucus on a silver platter... find a better practitioner of that art. You won't look at what you are doing close enough, unless someone trounces you pretty good. That sends you back to the drawing board to really analyze what happened, why and how your art may deal with that strategy.

Its not about disrespecting arts. Its not about proving which art is better. Its about really understanding your art, and respecting other arts enough work together, so that both practitioners can go back to their drawing boards and come out better martial artists for it, both with a better understanding of their own art.

 

[Martial D]

I think we should all be training this way. It shouldn't be about which system is better, but who understands their own system better. I think the lack of this process taking place has lead to the idea that Karate or TKD or Kung Fu having huge holes in their system. I don't believe most of the holes we see in these traditional arts are holes in the arts, but rather holes in the users understanding of the art that they study. It leads to ideas that a down block is a down block... and nothing else. This type of thinking gets people stuck, and they miss whole portions of the art. Then, they get promoted and start teaching people, never knowing about holes they introduced to their art. When you don't put in the time to figure out how an art deals with different tactics, and different strategies... I don't believe you are truly studying that art.

I think practitioners of all arts should be doing this. Adding resistance to your training is one step, the next step is experiencing that resistance from people who train other arts. And if the guy from the other art can't hand you your tucus on a silver platter... find a better practitioner of that art. You won't look at what you are doing close enough, unless someone trounces you pretty good. That sends you back to the drawing board to really analyze what happened, why and how your art may deal with that strategy.

Its not about disrespecting arts. Its not about proving which art is better. Its about really understanding your art, and respecting other arts enough work together, so that both practitioners can go back to their drawing boards and come out better martial artists for it, both with a better understanding of their own art.

I think there is a point where attachment to style becomes a roadblock. There comes a point where you have to ask yourself why you train. Is it to be the best you can be at a style, or do you want to be the best you can be?

 

[wab25]

I think there is a point where attachment to style becomes a roadblock. There comes a point where you have to ask yourself why you train. Is it to be the best you can be at a style, or do you want to be the best you can be?

I don't really understand what you are going for here... Ok sure, I want to be the best I can be, so I'll abandon all other arts and study BJJ cause its the best. Except that to fully understand BJJ, you have to go through this same process. There are plenty of examples of accomplished BJJ guys getting beat badly when they compete in more open rule sets. There are also examples of BJJ guys learning how BJJ handles these other strategies, and doing much better.

The goal should always be to become the best you can. The different arts are tools to use in that journey. For whatever reason, we gravitate towards different arts and sometimes we change arts. Nothing wrong with that at all. But whatever art or arts you are studying, BJJ included, you miss a lot if you don't spar/roll/randori with resistance. You will also miss a lot if you don't take your art to other arts and learn how your art deals with those other strategies. If you don't find that out, you are not gaining a full understanding of the art you are studying, no matter which art it is.

If you choose to study an art, do you want to study all of the art or only part of it? Different answers for different people, will help them be the best that they can be. Remember, we don't all have the same definition of best.

Anyone else feel like joining the army now?

 

[Martial D]

I don't really understand what you are going for here... Ok sure, I want to be the best I can be, so I'll abandon all other arts and study BJJ cause its the best.

I don't think anyone is making the argument that BJJ is the best. I would argue it provides useful skills from certain ranges, and skills to help you achieve, maintain, or even avoid those ranges, that most other styles do not. BJJ is not the only style to provide these solutions, but it is surely the most comprehensive(one stop shop)

If you want to be a complete martial artist you are going to want to be competent at all ranges of fighting. Ignoring certain ranges entirely doesn't make any sense.

The goal should always be to become the best you can. The different arts are tools to use in that journey. For whatever reason, we gravitate towards different arts and sometimes we change arts. Nothing wrong with that at all. But whatever art or arts you are studying, BJJ included, you miss a lot if you don't spar/roll/randori with resistance. You will also miss a lot if you don't take your art to other arts and learn how your art deals with those other strategies. If you don't find that out, you are not gaining a full understanding of the art you are studying, no matter which art it is.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

If you choose to study an art, do you want to study all of the art or only part of it? Different answers for different people, will help them be the best that they can be. Remember, we don't all have the same definition of best.

It depends if you want to be the best you can at a style, or the best martial artist you can be.

 

[Hanzou]

The Bujinkan has a good amount of standing grappling that could translate into a tournament context

Broadly speaking there are three issues with this:
1 - Whilst many of the throws, takedowns are legal, the set ups are generally "out of context" for a tournament. For example sweeps are exchanged for kicks, strikes are used to break balance for a takedown, the groin and the throat are major targets which change your core grappling posture and so on
2 - Most Bujinkan dojos don't teach/study the technical adjustments needed for a competition
3 - Most Bujinkan dojos don't spar so they don't learn how to deal with resistance

Most people haven't figured out how to cross the divide between efficiency for self defence and pressure training for competition/randori. Instead preferring the comfort of sitting firmly in one camp vs the other

According to the Bujinkan, there's over 30 throws.
Here is also some Bujinkan newaza:

While I certainly understand they have some hang-ups with making things more "deadly" than necessary, it shouldn't take much to modify a throw or a pin to make it comply to a ruleset if you have the base skill to pull it off in the first place.

I think the issue is that they don't have the skill in the first place.

 

[dunc]

According to the Bujinkan, there's over 30 throws.
Here is also some Bujinkan newaza:

While I certainly understand they have some hang-ups with making things more "deadly" than necessary, it shouldn't take much to modify a throw or a pin to make it comply to a ruleset if you have the base skill to pull it off in the first place.

I think the issue is that they don't have the skill in the first place.

Hi
Did you read my post that you quoted?
Just checking as maybe I worded it badly & folks missed the points made or some other misunderstanding

 

[Hanzou]

Hi
Did you read my post that you quoted?
Just checking as maybe I worded it badly & folks missed the points made or some other misunderstanding

Yes. I was pointing out that those limitations you listed should be easily overcame by rather simple modifications. I simply don't buy the notion that a competent martial artist can't adjust their skill set based on the situation at hand.

 

[dunc]

Ahhh OK - thanks

Surely doing so would take work 'though?

 

[Hanzou]

Ahhh OK - thanks

Surely doing so would take work 'though?

Certainly. However if you wish to compete utilizing Ninjutsu such work should be expected and not be an insurmountable task.

In Bjj, you have to take competition classes to prepare yourself for competition. In those classes several Bjj techniques are modified, and if it is nogi, those techniques are modified even further.

 

[dunc]

Sure, but BJJ is very competition oriented so the adjustment from ordinary training to a competition is relatively straightforward

For someone who's spent all their mat time doing something quite different the adjustment will be a bigger one & require more work