Ninjutsu & Ju Jitsu Related

[ace]

Yes or No???

 

[yilisifu]

Absolutely not.

Ninjitsu was a method employed by medieval assassins who were not of samurai birth. Jujitsu was taught only to the samurai class.

What is often touted nowadays as ninjitsu often contains a mixture of karate (which wasn't introduced to Japan until 1923) and jujitsu techniques...

Real, modern ninjas are known as SAS, Delta Force, SEALS......

 

[Jay Bell]

*sigh*

yilisifu,

If you don't know the answer to a question, it's best to allow those who do to answer.

 

[Mon Mon]

1. I would have to agree with Jay Bell yilisifu i can tell you that what is taught by the Bujinkan,Genbukan, and Jinekan is authentic ninjutsu and not Karate i can't say the same for people like Ashida Kim thow

2. Also some records show that some ninja were samurai. Ninja were really not assassins sure they had to do that occassionally but a true ninja was and is a person of endurance and perserverence. "The first priority of the ninja was and is to win without fighting" Essence of Ninjutsu By: Masaakai Hatsumi

3. Ninja's were not mindless killers they were a incredible people who had a strict set of beliefs they did not kill inocent people. One of the rules of the ninja is do not kill. Althow i think they only killed when no other choice was avaible. Ninjas loved peace.



4. I would say Ninjutsu and Jujutsu were connected because Ninja used to use Jujutsu Systems like Gyyko Ryu I know Samurai have used this system too.


well thats my 2cents worth



:asian:

 

[heretic888]

Ninjitsu was a method employed by medieval assassins who were not of samurai birth.

Okay, first things first: its spelled ninjutsu, not ninjitsu.

Secondly, this immature ninja/samurai dichotomy that everyone seems to hold is, in my opinion, extremely misconstrued.

Hanzo Hattori, an Iga-ryu jonin, was considered a highly respected samurai under the service of Tokugawa Ieyasu. Iga Heinabe Yasukiyo, one of the early Iga ninja jonin, was a samurai under the service of Minamoto Yoritomo (founder of the Kamakura shogunate). Because of his services, Yasukiyo was awarded the land and lordship of Iga Hattori (which thus enabled the Iga-ryu ninja to blossom). Yasukiyo's descendent, Ise Saburo Yoshimoro, was under the service of Minamoto Yoshitsune and was largely responsible for the founding of Yoshitsune-ryu ninjutsu. The founder of Togakure-ryu ninjutsu, Daisuke (Nishina) Togakure, was born a samurai and served Minamoto Yoshinaka before he formed the Togakure-ryu. The founder of Gyokushin-ryu ninjutsu, whose name eludes me at the moment, was also a respected samurai. Tozawa Hakuunsai, founder of the ninja school of Gyokko-ryu kosshijutsu, was a samurai under the service of the Minamoto family. Izumo Kaja Yoshiteru, founder of both Kukishin-ryu happo bikenjutsu and Shinden Fudo-ryu dakentaijutsu (traditions that are closely associated/linked with the Iga ninja), was also born into the samurai class.

What does all this mean?? Well, obviously not all shinobi were born of the samurai class nor did all shinobi achieve such status. However, a significant number of them did (notably the more prominent ninja). In other words, some ninja were samurai, and some weren't. This illusory dichotomy between the two is just that: illusory.

Thirdly, ninja (as in the Iga-bushi and Koga-bushi, warriors that followed Ninpo) were not the only ones that studied ninjutsu (as in the generic 'arts of stealth'). There is ninjutsu within the Katori Shinto-ryu and Daito-ryu traditions (respected samurai schools), among others. However, ninja schools such as the Togakure-ryu and Kumogakure-ryu were the only ryuha which EMPHASIZED the ninjutsu.

Jujitsu was taught only to the samurai class.

Not true. JUJUTSU (like taijutsu) was a rather generic lable for empty handed martial arts, and does not really refer to one specific 'style' or 'form'. There were quite a few civillian schools that taught jujutsu (probably formed from jizamurai).

What is often touted nowadays as ninjitsu often contains a mixture of karate (which wasn't introduced to Japan until 1923) and jujitsu techniques...

Ummm.... no offense, but :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Real, modern ninjas are known as SAS, Delta Force, SEALS......

Hmmm.... this one is still open to debate but to quote Hatsumi-soke:

"Ninpo began as training to become a moral people
and to learn to endure in whatever social
condition one is in; to know and accept one's
fate, and to live for human beings and all other
creatures. The person who masters all of these
is a ninja."

By Masaaki Hatsumi
[Ninpo: Wisdom for Life, Page 50]

 

[yilisifu]

My mistake. I was relying on information provided to me by 9th and 10th dan martial arts teachers from both Japan and Okinawa.

 

[arnisador]

"Ninpo began as training to become a moral people
and to learn to endure in whatever social
condition one is in; to know and accept one's
fate, and to live for human beings and all other
creatures. The person who masters all of these
is a ninja."

By Masaaki Hatsumi

I believe that jujutsu has mixed with ninjutsu and that the samurai and ninja categorizations overlapped, but surely there is some historical revisionism in the above quote? No martial art started for other than combative reasons until relatively recent times, I strongly suspect.

 

[heretic888]

My mistake. I was relying on information provided to me by 9th and 10th dan martial arts teachers from both Japan and Okinawa.

ahem. unless the gentlemen/women you mentioned were somehow involved or connected with the Takamatsu-den, it is HIGHLY unlikely they would know any valid information about the truth of Ninpo.

I believe that jujutsu has mixed with ninjutsu and that the samurai and ninja categorizations overlapped

If by that you mean there are some ninja-derived ryuha that teach jujutsu or jutaijutsu (notably the Shinden Fudo-ryu dakentaijutsu and Kukishin-ryu happo hikenjutsu), then that is true. But, I don't think ninja combat teachings ever 'mixed' with mainstream samurai forms. Most ninja taijutsu (Togakure-ryu, Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu, Kukishin-ryu, Hakuun-ryu, Yoshitsune-ryu) are derived from the teachings of Chinese military commanders such as Ikai and Chinese mystics such as Gamon Doshi and Garyu Doshi. They are not derived from samurai forms of jujutsu and taijutsu (for the most part, anyways).

but surely there is some historical revisionism in the above quote? No martial art started for other than combative reasons until relatively recent times, I strongly suspect.

Surely you aren't intimating you know more about Ninpo than Hatsumi-soke!!

To answer your inquiry, to the best of my knowledge, Ninpo (the life philosophy of the ninja) is probably older than organized ninjutsu itself. There is apparently Ninpo (or parts of it anyway) within the Amatsu Tatara. Besides, you must remember that the very earliest jonin of the Iga ninja, for example, were all doshi or 'moralists': Gamon Doshi, Garyu Doshi, Hakuun Doshi, Kagakure Doshi, to name a few. The 'spiritual' and 'moral' side has probably ALWAYS been present in the ninja budo.

Then again, whudduh I know??

 

[ace]

Thanks for the Feed Back

 

[heretic888]

actually...... i believe the overall summary of this thread is that the answer is not black and white like most people think it is....

 

[arnisador]

Perhaps you are correct then--the moral side of it developed for moral reasons, tautologically enough! Still, I must say it seems like a somewhat rosy view to cast on the past--I must remain somewhat skeptical.

How old are the actual words ninpo and ninjutsu as used to refer to the philosopgy and the techniques, respectively?

 

[heretic888]

Perhaps you are correct then--the moral side of it developed for moral reasons, tautologically enough!

Actually, I think Ninpo probably developed more as a system of mind/body harmony and such (which is admittedly related to morality)... but that the awareness of self-protection was also there too. The combative and spiritual sides of the art probably developed side by side.

Still, I must say it seems like a somewhat rosy view to cast on the past--I must remain somewhat skeptical.

Perhaps, but you must remember the ninja were not at all like the mainstream bushido culture surrounding them. No matter how much modern day budoka can gloss over their arts with 'high warrior morals' and such, the vast majority of bushido-derived mainstream samurai arts were used to conquer and to attain power, NOT to defend and protect the weak and innocent. Glory and honor, death before dishonor. In others words, warlords and fuedal warfare.

The ninja were a much more peacable culture with Taoist roots. They sought to avoid conflict altogether, thus their high refinements of ninjutsu as an emphasis of study.

How old are the actual words ninpo and ninjutsu as used to refer to the philosopgy and the techniques, respectively?

I believe the terms themselves are actually quite recent (only 200 or so years old). But their references are much much older.

 

[Lawman9]

What is often touted nowadays as ninjitsu often contains a mixture of karate (which wasn't introduced to Japan until 1923) and jujitsu techniques...

Karate?? hmmm... 9th and 10th Dans provided that info? I think there has been enough said about that.