Ninjutsu Everywhere!!!

[Supra Vijai]

A) Fair enough. I have an account on MAP because I like to see different view points on things and different attitudes. Sometimes even learn from what's posted and then post it myself somewhere else (with due credit where due). If that makes me a Troll, so be it.

B) Uhh you pointing it out or not pointing it out makes no difference. He is my instructor and a damn good one. If the issue for you is that I call him Sensei it's because I was raised to give respect to my seniors and I use the term to mean 'One who has gone before me' rather than just "Teacher" not because he demands it. In fact there's a thread on here where he's told me that I needn't bother with it because this isn't the Dojo. So not exactly sure why you thought you had to mention that. Not even gonna dignify that criticism comment...

Oh right, my apologies, that post did refer to you didn't it? How bout we leave the student retention to the people actually in charge of the X-Kans yeah? Something tells me they may just possibly have some idea of what they're doing. Oh and for the record... I'm not X-Kan...

 

[Aiki Lee]

Hey Himura, NO disrespect intended at all here but how did he manage to get 5th Dan in Toshindo and a 4th Dan in the Booj? I thought the 2 were kinda mutually exclusive? Not to mention the whole you can't train in another organization when training with the Kans thing. Just curious. No doubts in the world that he's got mad skillz

maienza trained in the bujinkan from the early 80s and trained with Hayes privately. From my understanding he wanted to experience the teachings passed on through the Bujinkan as well as Haye's interpretation of it. I'm not a great historian on when he did what exactly, but I have seen both his certificates of rank from both organizations.

The man really did spend almost his entire life training. I know he trained in both aikijujutsu arts simultanously and I believe he trained in American Jujitsu while helping run Toshindo.

I don't know all the details, but I know he did it.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Oh not questioning the authenticity aspect at all. I was just asking because it's been mentioned a few times that it's not very common to train in a Kan and in another organisation as well. Also Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu was what modern Aikido was based on right? The more brutal version associated with the Hell Dojo? Are you able to tell me why there is such a big focus on grappling type of arts?

I mean you have 2 Japanese Jujutsu systems, Aikido, Judo, American Jujitsu

I do realise there are more: Shotokan, TKD, BBT & TSD Ninpo but 5 outta the 9 arts seem to be geared towards some form of grappling? Does that reflect a fair bit in the training? Would you guys say you're more specialist rather than generalist? Once again, only asking out of curiousity about other systems

 

[Cryozombie]

I can start off with one of your future concerns... student retention since the X-kans are having that problem just like they did with keeping Bussey, Hayes, Law, and Loriega in the Bujinkan.

LOL.

Wow man, you got us there. Some of the BEST MOST DEDICATED PRACTITIONERS on THAT list.

 

[Chris Parker]

Himura Kenshin,

Thank you for the link and Info... Im glad to see that there are a few out there like us!!


Chris Parker, Bruno,

Sorry, but youve proven to me that you are not a fan of my school or teachings, very well, point taken thank you! Yes, I do go back and fourth between wanting to leave, However there are a few in the wood work that have shown me that there are good hearted non-baised people on this forum and for that I have decided to stay...

Thank you again for your input!

(I'm still grumpy, by the way... and things like this don't help)

I'm going to be blunt. We're neither fans nor detractors of your school or teachings. To my mind you have no school and have no teachings for us to be fans or detractors of. You simply don't have the experience, knowledge, understanding, or anything else that would actually be required. Just because we don't accept that a 6th Kyu with only a couple years training (and from the looks of things, a fair bit of that without an instructor?) can in no way create their own Ryu (for a number of reasons, including your knowledge, your understanding of the systems or even what a Ryu actually is, and the fact that there can be no new Ninjutsu systems whatsoever! None! It's impossible to create one as the requisite circumstances to create one do not exist anymore!) does not make us biased, it makes us critical. We have examined your claims, and find them incredibly lacking, to say it gently. That is not bias, it is observation.

Put it this way, someone goes to a French restaurant, talks to the staff and chef there, tries a few dishes, becomes a regular for a while. You visit them, and they serve you tacos, telling you that it's classical French cuisine, and they're teaching other people to cook. Is it biased to point out that tacos are not French cuisine, and after simply visiting a restaurant (rather than going through an apprenticeship, becoming a soux chef, and eventually making your way to being a chef properly) and starting to teach people French classical cooking is not realistic or even reality? Seriously, I want an answer to that. Is it bias to point out that tacos are not French cuisine, and the person has no business "teaching French cuisine"?

Actually Bruno I stood back and wanted to watch the maturity level of Martial Talk's members along with their moderators and to be blunt you guys are a bunch of little children living in a delusional world that only you are right and everyone else is wrong. (should I also bring up that a majority of you have memberships at MAP and Budo Seek too) Since you guys want to act immature and post videos and links showing your stupidity let me reference an episode of Family Guy that best describes the "Ninjutsu experts" opinions and words on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltssW5VYxQ&feature=related Oh yeah I want to point something out to you people just in case you haven't noticed it yet after all of these years but all of the most notable Ninjutsu instructors that brought it here from Hatsumi left the Bujinkan to do their own thing. Now why they always leave to do their own thing is between them and Hatsumi (along with I don't care its your guy's school) but its now starting to become a common occurrence with the X-kans is to get a Shidoshi title then give the dojo the bird and do your own thing. Besides I think I should take page from some of the Ninjutsu practitioners I looked up to when I was younger like Stephen Hayes, Robert Bussey, and James Loriega and say forget you guys and the X-kans you're more trouble than you're worth. Also did you guys see this documentary on Ninjutsu from Martial Arts View you guys have more problems to worry about than I do so take care and don't bother me anymore I have to do some ACTUAL TRAINING.

http://www.martialartsview.com/index-172.html

[URL="http://www.martialartsview.com/index-173.html"]http://www.martialartsview.com/index-173.html[/URL]

Seriously, you think that clip sums up our approach here? Which do you think we are, the donkey? You're a little out of touch with reality yourself, son. That actually fits you rather perfectly (we'd be the guy saying that Kevin Bacon was the star of Footloose there...). In terms of us being "children" who "live in a delusional world" where we alone are right.... son, what are you going on about here? You're saying that the only accepted lineages across all boards, all martial art registries, all verifiable histories, the only ones that actually have any chance at being historically valid, are the ones living in a delusional world, but those (such as yourself) who seek out systems that have no relationship to anything even close to reality, are fine? Do you understand how fractured your take on reality is here?

As for the "early pioneers" leaving to do their own thing, some have, some haven't. You'll need to do better than "people change", you know. As for your examples, Hayes' time in the system lends his Toshindo a fair degree of credibility, something that Ron Collins and others don't have. Robert Bussey, well, Bob is actually a good friend of my Chief Instructors', so I've been privy to a bit of the behind the scenes details there. Bob hasn't refered to his teachings as Ninjutsu for quite a while, and his approach to martial arts has been seperated from the Ninjutsu arts since the 90's, which he freely admits, so not a good example either. As for James Loriega, he was only with the Bujinkan for a tiny amount of time, he then went to Ron Duncan, to learn Ron's "Koga Ryu" system, which has no connection to anything relating to the arts of Ninjutsu other than mis-appropriating the name. It's based in a little bit of skill in a Jujutsu system, with Okinawan, Chinese, and Japanese weapons added in, as well as some Karate. Not an example of anything legitimate either.

The documentary is a joke, frankly. Their two "experts" are someone known for having nothing to do with anything legitimate, and as for Antony, he's frankly just a little man with a bent towards self publicity. He has been unable to answer any question I have had for him (and there have been a very large number), and has taken to having one of his cronies swear at me in two page long messages on you-tube. He has no research ability, no understanding of the culture, the language, the history, the traditions, critical thinking, or anything in any way relating to him being close to an "expert" in any way whatsoever. Their choice choice was to basically go with the first two people they could find, with no actual understanding of the subject itself (either the guests or the makers of the "documentaries" themselves.... but then again, that's standard procedure for these things, the History Channel does the same thing, as does Nat. Geographic, and everyone else I've seen). Try again.

Sorry Bruno, I know this was addressed to you and I'm not trying to speak for you in any way but could I ask a couple of quick questions here?:

A) What does us having memberships on MAP et al have anything to do with anything?

b) When were you bothered? (obviously I don't know about any PM's etc but purely based on this thread, no one has said anything to you except in reply to when you posted. The bulk of this thread has been back and forth between us delusional children and Kumori Ryu Ninja)

By taking the time to find those links and post this reply telling us to leave you alone, you've successfully pulled yourself away from your training - with no help from us!

A) That's simple you're going to run into the same people there telling you the same thing and doing the same activities here which is also called trolling

B) You don't seem to remember when I told Chris (should I also point out that you address as Sensei) to grow up and if he can't handle the same criticism he gives other people to shut up and don't say anything at all

By the way Supra I believe I was correcting something that Bruno said that I disappeared after the Koga Ryu connection to the Genbukan was proven to be "wrong" and besides like I said you X-kans have more problems to worry about than me a fake Koga ryu practitioner. I can start off with one of your future concerns... student retention since the X-kans are having that problem just like they did with keeping Bussey, Hayes, Law, and Loriega in the Bujinkan.

So your first point is that there is concensus in the community that what you're doing has no basis in reality, and you think that because everyone else says the same thing, that makes it wrong....? Huh? Oh, and that's not trolling, son, although what you're doing (interrupting threads with an obvious agenda) is.

Second, you were "bothered" when you told me to grow up (?), were you? How exactly does you acting like a spoiled tantrum-throwing child equate to you being "bothered"? Frankly, son, you are the one that needs to grow up. And as for my handling criticism, I'm a fair bit better at it than you are, I can actually debate these issues, and have many many times before. You just haven't brought anything that requires much attention, as it's been gone through many times before.

And oh, my word, what on earth are you talking about at the end there? The Bujinkan, to take an example, is about 250,000 members these days.... and frankly, many feel that it's far too big, so student retention isn't really a concern there. I've gone through Hayes and Bussey, and touched on Loriega, but when it comes to Law, are you really that delusional? The guy hosted a few seminars in Canada in the early 80's in order to get his photo taken with the instructors (including Hatsumi), didn't even train at them, and used those photo's to generate some form of credibility. He was never really "part" of the Bujinkan, despite his claims (which are frankly ludicrous when it comes down to it).

I'm going to suggest the same thing to you as to Kumori there.... go post on MAP. See how you go there.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Actually Bruno I stood back and wanted to watch the maturity level of Martial Talk's members along with their moderators and to be blunt you guys are a bunch of little children living in a delusional world that only you are right and everyone else is wrong. (should I also bring up that a majority of you have memberships at MAP and Budo Seek too) Since you guys want to act immature and post videos and links showing your stupidity let me reference an episode of Family Guy that best describes the "Ninjutsu experts" opinions and words on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltssW5VYxQ&feature=related Oh yeah I want to point something out to you people just in case you haven't noticed it yet after all of these years but all of the most notable Ninjutsu instructors that brought it here from Hatsumi left the Bujinkan to do their own thing. Now why they always leave to do their own thing is between them and Hatsumi (along with I don't care its your guy's school) but its now starting to become a common occurrence with the X-kans is to get a Shidoshi title then give the dojo the bird and do your own thing. Besides I think I should take page from some of the Ninjutsu practitioners I looked up to when I was younger like Stephen Hayes, Robert Bussey, and James Loriega and say forget you guys and the X-kans you're more trouble than you're worth. Also did you guys see this documentary on Ninjutsu from Martial Arts View you guys have more problems to worry about than I do so take care and don't bother me anymore I have to do some ACTUAL TRAINING.

http://www.martialartsview.com/index-172.html

http://www.martialartsview.com/index-173.html

A couple of things.

1) If you get PMs you think are harrassing or such, use the 'report' button.
2) MAP and budoseek are different sites. How you get treated there is not my problem.
3) While it is indeed true that people are splitting away from the Booj, you'll notice that none of us is saying anything bad from it because the people who do generally were trained to a full understanding of the art, or at least a good enough understanding that they stay true to the concepts involved. The founders of Jinenkan and Genbukan had menkyo kaiden in the dominant arts. Hayes broke away at 10 dan or so. chris' senseiat 5th dan. Are you suggesting that a 6th kyu student has a solid understanding of the arts and the experience and skill to pass that on?
4) Of course some people tell you not to bother with the kans. Your hero Ashida would be the first. We're the ones who are calling them larpers with zero foundation to claim to teach ninjutsu.
5) You say to not bother you anymore? You're the one who keeps coming back here to argue. You're free to leave at any time.

 

[Bruno@MT]

maienza trained in the bujinkan from the early 80s and trained with Hayes privately. From my understanding he wanted to experience the teachings passed on through the Bujinkan as well as Haye's interpretation of it. I'm not a great historian on when he did what exactly, but I have seen both his certificates of rank from both organizations.

The man really did spend almost his entire life training. I know he trained in both aikijujutsu arts simultanously and I believe he trained in American Jujitsu while helping run Toshindo.

I don't know all the details, but I know he did it.

In the earlier days, the Bujinkan was not making a big problem about people studying both arts at the same time. I could see that happening. Even today there are still people doing that.

 

[Chris Parker]

(Psst.... Bruno..... Mr Roy recieved 6th Dan, rather than 5th, 1990 from memory)

 

[Aiki Lee]

Oh not questioning the authenticity aspect at all. I was just asking because it's been mentioned a few times that it's not very common to train in a Kan and in another organisation as well. Also Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu was what modern Aikido was based on right? The more brutal version associated with the Hell Dojo? Are you able to tell me why there is such a big focus on grappling type of arts?

I mean you have 2 Japanese Jujutsu systems, Aikido, Judo, American Jujitsu

I do realise there are more: Shotokan, TKD, BBT & TSD Ninpo but 5 outta the 9 arts seem to be geared towards some form of grappling? Does that reflect a fair bit in the training? Would you guys say you're more specialist rather than generalist? Once again, only asking out of curiousity about other systems

I'd say we tend to foucs on everything about the same amount. The 5th lesson we teach our white belts is to strike with every technique so while we are heavy into throws we always, always include striking as well.

One of the ideas behind aiki ninjutsu was to take the techniques found in the other non aiki traditions and do them with aiki movement. In case you're wondering here is a rough breakdown on what is taught:

(this list in not comprehensive)
White-yellow=aiki kihon happo, 16 treasure fists, basic ukemi
yellow-orange= ninpo kihon happo, perform randori while keeping knees bent and back straight to maintain balance
orange-purple= perform techniques using supple power and not overwhelming strength or speed
purple-blue= 1st and 3rd secrets of aiki ninjutsu
blue-green= 2nd and 4th secrets of AN
green-red= 5th secret of AN, work on ju
red-brown= 36 move groundfighting drill, work on kazushi, irimi, tsukuri, kake, 6th secret of AN
brown-brown/black= bo kihon, sword kihon, refinement of skills requiring more work
brown/black-shodan= demonstration of all previous skills in randori, baisc knife defense, multiple attacker randori
1stdan-2nd dan= koto ryu shoden, kuji no bo
2nd dan- 3rd dan= Gyokko ryu jinryaku no maki scroll, sword shoden kata, randori with boken
3rd-4th= Daito ryu, mu to dori randori
4th-5th= togakure ryu
5th-6th= kukishin ryu
6th-7th = shinden fudo ryu
7th-8th = tagaki yoshin ryu
8th-9th= collect remaining kata from all systems in the Jizaikan
9th-10th = create own curriculum and find something new to contribute to aiki ninjutsu

when we focus on a particular school in the dan levels we don't just work on the kata and then forget about it. We use what we determine to be the schools main principles and then apply those methods to the kaa and techniques we have previously learned. For example as a 3rd dan studying daito ryu kata I am attempting to do the koto ryu and gyokko ryu kata I know as if theyw ere being done by a daito ryu practitioner.

It gets kinda hard to explain. I'm trying to get my teacher to post videos of how everyone in our system does the same technique but it changes and evolves at each belt level.

 

[Supra Vijai]

I think I see what you are saying: Take the Koto Ryu kata movements for example but apply the philosophy and attitude of Gyokko? (I'm using those 2 because they are 2 systems that I can say I've at least tried). When you say Brown - Brown/Black is Sword Kihon or Brown/Black - Black is Basic knife defence and so forth, do you cover those things before you get to those levels or are the classes seperated into grades/ranks with each rank working on different things?

 

[Bruno@MT]

(Psst.... Bruno..... Mr Roy recieved 6th Dan, rather than 5th, 1990 from memory)

Thanks Chris.
I thought I remembered you saying it was 5th.
Or perhaps 5th is the highest grade in your system and I got confused with that?

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, as Mr Roy is 6th Dan, 5th is the highest we go to under him. I'm currently 3rd.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I think I see what you are saying: Take the Koto Ryu kata movements for example but apply the philosophy and attitude of Gyokko? (I'm using those 2 because they are 2 systems that I can say I've at least tried). When you say Brown - Brown/Black is Sword Kihon or Brown/Black - Black is Basic knife defence and so forth, do you cover those things before you get to those levels or are the classes seperated into grades/ranks with each rank working on different things?

These are all indrocued earlier with some other skills as well, but they are not tested for until these specific levels. And yes you seem to have the idea.

So yes, I could take a koto ryu kata, apply a gyokko ryu strategy and perform it in a daito ryu way. Obviously it changes the way the technique looks but not so much that one shouldn't be able to recognize it.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Nice. Not being a koryu and therefore not training in a strictly koryu fashion, you can afford to play with the techs like that so might as well make the most of it huh? Oh and just in case that sounds snobby, I don't train in a Koryu either

 

[Aiki Lee]

I don't think it came off as snobby at all. I like the fact we have so many different traditions in our organizations because we have a several lifetimes worth of material to study.

 

[Tanaka]

Actually Bruno I stood back and wanted to watch the maturity level of Martial Talk's members along with their moderators and to be blunt you guys are a bunch of little children living in a delusional world that only you are right and everyone else is wrong. (should I also bring up that a majority of you have memberships at MAP and Budo Seek too) Since you guys want to act immature and post videos and links showing your stupidity let me reference an episode of Family Guy that best describes the "Ninjutsu experts" opinions and words on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltssW5VYxQ&feature=related Oh yeah I want to point something out to you people just in case you haven't noticed it yet after all of these years but all of the most notable Ninjutsu instructors that brought it here from Hatsumi left the Bujinkan to do their own thing. Now why they always leave to do their own thing is between them and Hatsumi (along with I don't care its your guy's school) but its now starting to become a common occurrence with the X-kans is to get a Shidoshi title then give the dojo the bird and do your own thing. Besides I think I should take page from some of the Ninjutsu practitioners I looked up to when I was younger like Stephen Hayes, Robert Bussey, and James Loriega and say forget you guys and the X-kans you're more trouble than you're worth. Also did you guys see this documentary on Ninjutsu from Martial Arts View you guys have more problems to worry about than I do so take care and don't bother me anymore I have to do some ACTUAL TRAINING.

http://www.martialartsview.com/index-172.html

http://www.martialartsview.com/index-173.html

That's funny... because that episode actually reminds me of YOU.
You reject what people are telling you, because you want to do your own thing. Only until NOW have you even started pronouncing "Ninjutsu" correctly.

And problems from Anthony? You mean the guy who doesn't really have any understanding of Japanese concepts. He doesn't realize that Ninpo is a concept... the physical techniques are just projection of the philosophy.

 

[Supra Vijai]

You mean if I won't actually be able to use Gyokko Ryu Ichimonji no Kata against an attacker on the street? :O What about when I'm sword fighting my opponent? Surely when I take Daijodan to show dominance at the end of my kata he will revert to Waki to show submission before we bow out?